Monday, October 29, 2012

Hitting the wall


Honestly, until I hit The Manosphere (heh) this expression, to me, meant 'running out of energy' during an endurance race.

But as I have learned along the way here, nothing uttered in The Manosphere is quite what one is used to :-)

But that's OK. It's nice to acquire new vocabulary :-)

I am, as it happens familiar with 'hitting the wall'. No, not that one, the sports-related one!
Mind you, with regard to 'the other one', my cruel male relatives swing between 'you got there years ago' to 'maybe one or two more years to go' depending on how long it's been since I cooked dinner :-)

And my lovely female friends say I have at least another ten years minimum irrespective of my views on who is more attractive - Jen or Angelina.

See? Sometimes, we women can be truly loyal to one another. Unconditionally. Especially when our collective hamsters get together.
In return, I give all my female friends fifteen years minimum. I am generous like that :-)


I am particularly interested in 'The Wall' not because I am at or close to it, but because, let's face it, every woman will get there, some quicker than others. And, as they say, offence is the best form of defence. Or was it the other way round?

Anyhow, the big question today is, how best to tackle the approach of The Great Wall?


I would like as many people's advice on this as possible. Old and young, male and female, prince or pauper...

But...whilst I know that men have their own wall, I am (as is often the case on this blog) at least for now, only interested in the female wall. However, if anyone feels inclined to discuss the male wall, of course feel free!


I came to a stark realisation recently, which I will share, to gain some insight into my own psyche.

I recently hit the wall in an endurance sport. Unusually for me, I actually trained adequately for this one, rather than launch into it and 'hope for the best'.

And yet, I still hit the wall, big time, which was psychologically crushing...but there we are.


But, what was more intiguing to me, was that in my bid to keep myself going, this was the song I had in my mind, to 'psych' myself up.

Now, I have always been a fan of this group, but I can't believe that this song, of all their songs, was the one I was thinking of, to haul myself out of my 'hitting the wall' moment:







Hahahahahahahahahaha!

There is nothing even remotely feminine about this song. Although I must say, the one female character represented in it  is probably as feminine as an 'urban chick' can get. And she is hilariously 'over the top'. As are her male counterparts.
In short, the implied gratuitous violence in this video is so over-exaggerated that it is funny.



Now, don't get me wrong.
Prior to 'Pump it!' I did try this:




But it didn't work for me :-(
I needed a different frame of mind than Julie Andrews could offer me...




And herein lies the connecting link between the two types of 'hitting the wall'.

In the sports version, it is almost as if I was only ever going to respond to something more 'masculine' in order to get through.

The lyrics of 'Pump it!' are, to me, undeniably masculine.
But they worked for me :-)
'Girls in white dresses with blue satin sashes' wouldn't cut it when I was grappling for something to hang onto to prevent imminent descent into the abyss of sporting failure...



Something most women fear is the masculinisation of their bodies when they get to a certain age.
I remember it was quite the fashion in the 90s for Brit comedies like 'Birds of a feather' to openly poke fun at older Greek ladies with beards for example...

But this is not a phenomenon limited to Greek octogenarians. I am sure this happens to all racial groups, but of course some are hairier than others...

So a woman become less feminine and more masculine as she 'hits the wall'.
That's biology.
And she loses her once pristine looks.
That's cruelty :-)

I know some incredibly feminine women in their 80s and beyond. And no facial hair in sight :-)
What's different about these women?



Are there any tips for women approaching or at 'The Wall'?

Please be kind, gentlemen :-)

Shall we categorise these into 3 groups?

a. Physical

b. Social (and could include tips on how to dress, behave, etc)

c. Inner self (which I think could be most important).


I think 'hitting the wall' is a very important time in a woman's life. Her inner self could be the deciding factor as to whether or not she has been a 'success' or a 'failure', whatever her definitions of these might be.
What should a woman's inner mental state be like, at the time of wall-hitting?

I don't think one need be a woman in the process of hitting the wall, to answer this question.
It is one of those issues that need to be considered well before one arrives there.
One need not be a woman at all, I would add.
Certain things are universal. This might be one of them.

Not to be morbid, but it's like talking about ...death.

I am not sure why I am thinking death...but perhaps this is the right season...All Saints and All Souls are right round the corner.

Or Hallowe'en to the Americans among us :-)

Whilst I don't equate 'hitting the wall' with physical death, I am sure to the woman who experiences it, it is some sort of petite mort or 'little death' as the French would say.

It is a metaphorical exit from the SMP for some (not all) women because men are visual. For a woman who does not wish to exit the SMP, it must be painful.




And there are women who do not seem to realise that they hit the wall sometime back.
It is even more painful to witness this.
I am becoming more and more aware that the term 'age gracefully' died when feminism was born.
Nothing demonstrates this more than recent photos of some ageing female Hollywood stars.


This is why I beseech thee to be kind. Treat this as you would treat the topic of death...
With reverence.
Please...



But...inasmuch as I really don't want to show some of the worst photos of this 'hitting the wall fast and hard' phenomenon (it really is that painful to see), I think I know one lady who is really a lady. She is one of several ladies who I think deserve a dignified chapeau (hat tip).

I have always liked her. She always commands respect. If I look like her at her age, I would be happy:




Dame Judi Dench, with Daniel Craig at the recent 'Skyfall' première in London


Another one is this woman:


Dame Helen Mirren
 
They have this in common: They are both post-wall women, but their clear dignity makes one forget that more readily...
 
 
Any tips for the rest of us to make us more like these two?
Other than 'get knighted by the Queen'?
 
:-)
 
 
 


82 comments:

Carnivore said...

a. Physical
*Don't become a land whale. If a guy takes the time in the gym to maintain the muscles you like, you can at least stay slim. Besides, a guy wants to toss his woman around without getting a hernia.
*Don't overdo the makeup. Makeup is supposed to highlight, not transform. Leave the trowel in the shed.

b. Social
*Don't become bitchy. What's worse than a young bitch is an old bitch. Your beaming face and pleasant demeanor will instantly transform and energize a guy.
*Dress with class. Don't get lazy with everyday clothes. While it's easy to slip into a flour sack, that just won't do. A guy wants to know his woman makes herself hawt for him.

c. Inner self
Think young but remember your age before you act.

gunner451 said...

First you need a proper definition of what "hitting the wall" means. In the manosphere it is that point where a woman starts to rapidly show her age and loses most of her youthful feminine beauty. For most women this occurs in their late thirties to early forties. There is no equivalent for men as men don't rely as much on looks as women do in the sexual market place and actually for most men late thirties to early forties is their "prime" years in a lot of ways.

A woman's greatest asset is her youthful looks and body. There is a limited window of opportunity in which women can use these assets to capture a decent man in a long term relationship. Once those looks start to go so do your options and opportunities.

As far as advice, well if you recognize that the wall is approaching then in all likelihood you've already hit it but are still in denial about it so there isn't much you can do if you are not already in a long term relationship (marriage) but set you sights lower when looking for a man (assuming that you haven't already given up then it's just a matter of selecting the cats you want to spend the rest of your time with).

If you really have not hit the wall then the best advice (even if you have) is don't get fat and I mean not even a muffin top. If you have a slim feminine figure it will go a long way even if your face has started to look like a basset hound a nice ass is still a great asset.

The second is more difficult, if you've been riding the cock carousel and have a high notch number it will show. You'll be hard, hard as in the same way hookers are hard. It will show, in your eyes, in your bitchy attitude and your demeanor. Not much you can do about that but if you haven't been riding the carousel too much then get off and stay off. Stop going for the exciting bad boy and start looking at those hard working office drones.

Lastly start working out in the kitchen and in the more domestic arts. If all you know how to do is heat up a can of soup that's a fail. Being able to create a home that a guy wants to come back to after a long days work is something that is unbelievably valuable to most men. Don't underestimate it's worth.

Leap of a Beta said...

Basically, train and flex all the feminine aspects of your life. Make sure that you're eating well (low carb if not paleo), stay slim with workouts, be reading how to be a domestic lady through tasks and cooking, and make sure you keep your mind sharp as you can (I recommend the classic literature if you haven't already).

Proper nutrition and supplements will help almost all of it though. It'll keep your mind and body sharp and you'll get more out of any kind of activity you do to better either of them.

Leap of a Beta said...

Also, if you need a new song for hitting that work out wall, I suggest this one. Still masculine, but it makes me laugh like crazy and I love it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg-jPqEt_Co

Ceer said...

@ Spacetraveller

Ceer said...

@ spacetraveller

Sorry about the empty comment. The enter key didn't do what I wanted it to.

Anyway, speaking from a male perspective, Helen Mirren and Judy Dench both have a visible amount of dignity, but them being post wall is still painfully obvious. Men have a nose for this sort of thing.

On your main question...I think of hitting the wall more like RUNNING a marathon. Allow me to draw an analogy:

Very little of your work is done actually running the marathon. If you train properly, you can run both fast and safely the day of. It doesn't matter whether you start training months or years previous, so long as you put in the effort, keep yourself well fed but not fat, and are able to psych yourself up if you hit a major bump. Fail to do this, and it will be obvious because you fail to finish, leaving all the people who have prepared better to pass you by.

Apply this to feminine aging:

Very little of your effort to resist aging will be spent during the time when you hit the wall, if you prepare properly. It doesn't REALLY matter whether you spend years or decades on the relationship in the runup to hitting the wall. As long as you keep your body in good shape, select the right man, do your job as a wife, give your man respect, and employ a little wisdom during the rough patches, the man you love will age alongside you, loving you well past your ability to attract a one night stand. If you fail to do this, it will be obvious because you will be a single mother or lonely cat lady while all the other happy housewives grow old and live happily ever after with men who love them.

Ceer said...

One can make the case based on virtue theory that if you take care of #3, #2 will naturally improve.

It may not be quite that simple, but you're right to state #3 is still possibly the most important.

A woman has the ability to inspire a man. This is quite possibly her most important quality because it doesn't really diminish with age... it's more like it changes tune from sweet to wholesome.

Optimal inner frame for a wall-hitter is much the same as a traditional housewife ...one of being hard working, loyal, demure, and respectful will get you far. The advantage of female beta qualities is that they synergize well with female alpha qualities.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Carnivore,

Great advice! Can't argue with this. Thank you.

But this made me laugh:

"Besides, a guy wants to toss his woman around without getting a hernia."

Carnivore, we are tlking about advice for a woman at or near The Wall, not a teenager!
Hahahahaha!

Anyway, this lady clearly doesn't want to give her dance partner a hernia.
If Mohammed won't go to the mountain...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2211656/Strictly-Come-Dancing-2012-Lisa-Riley-female-lift-male-dance-partner.html

This is true equality, huh?

"What's worse than a young bitch is an old bitch."

LOL!

@ Gunner,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!
Um, I think...
Just kidding!

Man, you harsh!
Good thing I expected a degree of 'cruel to be kind' in this post, eh?
:-)

"...well if you recognize that the wall is approaching then in all likelihood you've already hit it but are still in denial about it..."

Objection!
:-)

"Stop going for the exciting bad boy and start looking at those hard working office drones."

Ah, Gunner, I remember this was also Bill's advice in his Red Pill lesson that he gave a young woman in the post 'The gourmet meal...of red pills!'

Women who do this are absolutely LOATHED by you guys. And yet, that is exactly what you would advice a woman with a colourful past to do, if you care about her (as in, if she were a relative of yours). I understand this, of course. But a woman who follows this particular advice will undoubtedly meet with a lot of resistance from the 'betas' she starts to consider when she is closer to the Wall. But...what is the alternative solution for her - plan for loneliness for the rest of her life?
That should not be the case. We should all have hope, whatever our past...
So I think this particular comment of yours is useful, if brave, but may ofend some of your fellow males... (but no woman will be offended by it, of course).

"Being able to create a home that a guy wants to come back to after a long days work is something that is unbelievably valuable to most men. Don't underestimate it's worth."

Golden advice. This should apply to any woman, at any age. I think it is a pleasure for most women to be able to do this for the men they love. Very much part of 'what a woman is for'!


@ Leap,

"...and make sure you keep your mind sharp as you can..."
Yes, Leap. The value of this is underestimated, but I think it is vital!
Being dumb is never cool. In the previous post we were discussing the naïvety of Joanna Drayton in 'Guess who's coming to dinner'. It was naïvety, not dumbness. I think I (and perhaps many others) would have been far less forgiving of her if she had been dumb, although, that is still better than a crass, unpleasant woman, I guess...

The video you link to was absolutely crackers!!!!
I was laughing my head off :-)
Now that's another one I could have used when I was hitting the wall...
Hahahahahaha!

Spacetraveller said...

@ Ceer,

Brilliant analogy! As you know, I can relate to that ;)

The issue of preparation is an important one. I think this applies to both men and women, but in different ways...
Let me explain.

For a woman, she has her 'assets' young. Her beauty and ova are already present at birth. And if anything, these decline with age.
So women are in the business of 'damage limitation' so to speak from birth, really :-)

All that 'preparation' you speak of, is simply to slow down the decline. It is nothing but a 'buying extra time' maneouvre.

For men, the 'preparation time' is to build something up, not to slow the decline of something. Whatever this may be - his business empire, his confidence, his wealth, his social skills, etc.


I agree that the strategy of 'hope and pray' with no preparation beforehand usualy fails spectacularly. I have learned this lesson in sport already :-)

Great analogy, thanks.

By the way, speaking of the male 'wall', I heard a theory that Prince William only married because he was losing his hair! If it weren't for his impending baldness, he'd still be single, apparently.
Now this seems absurd to me, because men are never judged on their looks alone...
It wouldn't surprise anyone here that this rumour was started by ...a woman's magazine...

But this brings me to another point: Is there actually a male wall at all? And what would that entail - a loss of confidence??

I find that hard to fathom...
So perhaps it is a fallacy that there is such a thing as a male wall, no? Just pondering...

"Anyway, speaking from a male perspective, Helen Mirren and Judy Dench both have a visible amount of dignity, but them being post wall is still painfully obvious."

Sure. I agree. But what is so nice about these two ladies is that they accept their ageing wth grace. They are never dressed like 'mutton as lamb' sort of thing. Too many Hollywood actresses fail at this. Somehow, ageing men don't have the same problem because they are never judged on their appearance anyway, lucky fellas. Although some of their antics leave one a little ...bemused...
HUgh Heffner, for example may be a hero to many men. But I wonder...

Thanks for your thoughts about the inner qualities. I think the inner qualities MUST become more evident as a woman heads for the Wall, because we don't have so much in the way of 'outer qualities' to bargain with anymore, to be honest...
This is a question of Nature. It is as is. Little point in fighting it, I guess.

PVW said...

@ST: When I first began reading about "the wall," I saw it as the usual attack of ageism against women for doing pretty much what all humans have done from time immemorial.

I did realize eventually that there was something else going on; they were thinking about aging carousel riders and aging women who pursue their "I'm not haappy" divorces.

There are plenty of women who "hit the wall" in terms of male assessments of their attractiveness, but they don't give a hoot, and they don't obsess about it. They take it in stride, merely working at aging well and living well; they take good care of themselves.

They are more likely to be matrons, women who have been married for a long time, raising children (or not), or even widowed, but they are contented to undertake their role as elders in the community.

The women who have the hardest time, I believe, are those who are single and especially those who did their most in trading upon their looks as much younger women. They wake up one morning only to realize that they reached a certain point that they are not noticed anymore.

So back to Dench and Mirren; yes, they have hit the wall, but they might not be the type typically discussed when manosphere dwellers think of the "wall." They are happily married women, quite dignified, matronly and attractive as a result.

It is just that their attraction is not the same as the manosphere dwellers' interest in the 20-somethings. It is what they hope their wives will look like after years of contentment in marriage.

PVW said...

@ST, further thoughts on men "hitting the wall."

I think men can hit the wall, but not the same as women do, as was mentioned, because they don't draw upon their looks as much as women do.

But it still affects them, ie., losing their hair, as William has been experiencing. However, William has not hit the wall; he is a tall and trim man in his 30s.

He doesn't look as young as he did when he was a teenager or in his 20s; but the up side is that he looks like a mature grown up man--yet that boyish face is still there!

The men who hit the wall are those who realize that they not only are they 15 or so years away from their "glory days," whatever those were, but they are now 40 or more pounds heavier and out of shape. It can create its own mid-life crisis.

So what do they do? Think of what manosphere types tell men about married men's game, to keep their confidence up and stay in shape. Don't became a hapless middle aged man harried by his wife and children.

If she leaves, get in shape and find other women; as older and established men, they will be in high demand.

I view male mid-life crisis as an example of men fearing that either they might hit the wall or that their wives have.

Some wonder whether they still "have it," ie., they start having affairs with women not much older than their own daughters.

They buy sports cars to replicate the energy they had as younger men. They return to the sports they played as younger men and try to get back into shape.

Ceer said...

@ Spacetraveller

If anything, I'd say the male version of hitting the wall is more like remaining blue pill. Game is an attempt at breaking out of that. So, for men, maybe their version of hitting the wall comes early in life.

Spacetraveller said...

@ PVW,

Oh PVW, I love ya (no homo) lol.

This:

"There are plenty of women who "hit the wall" in terms of male assessments of their attractiveness, but they don't give a hoot, and they don't obsess about it."

As you know, I have a big mouth. I always have a lot to say, and my comments seem to exceed appropriate length limits lol. (Well, partly because I wasn't born with an 'edit' button in my brain :-)

But there are some things even I won't (can't) say, even here, which is a place to air all our 'dirty linen' so to speak.

This is a truth you mention above. Now this is one of those 'sacred cows' that Bellita talks about a lot.
The unique thing about this particular sacred cow, however, is that it is one I cannot touch.
As I am neither 'matronly' (yet) nor married (yet), I am not allowed to mention this group of which you speak. Because just about any one of The Manosphere denizens could throw a 'that is your role model? Good luck, kid!'at me, and it would be an appropriate comeback because these lovely ladies have lived their lives well, granted, but there are several steps between someone like me and them. They cannot be my immediate role model, because their lifestage is very different from mine, as you correctly state.

So I am glad someone mentioned this group and I am so pleased it was you!
For no-one can touch you for mentioning them :-)

This group of elegant ladies remain the ultimate goal for someone like me, like in 20-30 years' time though, lol. I don't forget them, but they are also not on the forefront of my mind right now.
Even if I heard tomorrow that Helen Mirren was 'on the pull' as we say in Britain (on the prowl, dating), her tactics at her age would and should be different from mine. At least I hope so.
Actually, I jolly well hope so! (Can't be seen to be dating like a granny, PVW - bad for a girl's Girl Game rep :-)

"The women who have the hardest time, I believe, are those who are single and especially those who did their most in trading upon their looks as much younger women."

Now I think I know which group you are referring to. However, most of us women do rely on our looks (some more heavily than others lol) when we are 'looking around' (Oh God, did I just say that - that's like, what my Granny would say - oh no, it's already happening, isn't it...help!)

So in many ways, most of us belong in this category. So it's pain all round when the looks start to go.

But some of these guys have been very quick to mention words like 'personality' and 'character' and such, which warms the cockles of me heart *grin*!

Those of us who rely on these will be pleased. As will those of us who have it 50-50. Only those who are 100% about looks will be displeased and rush off to the plastic surgeon...

Spacetraveller said...

Incidentally, no man has yet mentioned plastic surgery...and here we are talking about The Dreaded Wall!
What's going on??
Why are millions of women going under the knife if you gentlemen aren't even bothered?

What's the real deal here? Am I missing something?
I am curious...!

"It is what they hope their wives will look like after years of contentment in marriage."

Yes. This is important to know. A man who marries a hot 20 something today should be confident that she won't be unrecognisable in 30 years. No matter what he looks like, he'll do fine if he just keeps up his manly role in the family, I think. But the woman has to be careful not to fall into the obesity trap, yes.
Unfair but true.

How men deal with their midlife crisis is still a bit of a mystery to me. I don't get it, but that may be because I am a woman.
Of course I have observed it, but there is something about it which completely eludes me. I can't put my finger on it.I need to think about that one for a bit...

I may come back with questions on that (hm, how's that for a friendly threat :-)

Ceer,

"If anything, I'd say the male version of hitting the wall is more like remaining blue pill."

Wow, that's an interesting take on things! I never thought of it like that before... ever!

Do the other blokes agree?

This wall, of course is still very much remediable, because you can only grow your confidence. (Can one recede in confidence? I am not sure - can you?)

If confidence can only grow, then of course this male wall you talk about is still way better than a woman losing her looks...

dannyfrom504 said...

i'm staying away from this one.

Carnivore said...

Carnivore, we are talking about advice for a woman at or near The Wall, not a teenager!
Hahahahaha!

Anyway, this lady clearly doesn't want to give her dance partner a hernia.


@ST, you are a really sweet girl. I was thinking more along the lines of a husband picking up his woman, pinning her against the wall and....

PVW said...

@St: As I am neither 'matronly' (yet) nor married (yet), I am not allowed to mention this group of which you speak.

Because just about any one of The Manosphere denizens could throw a 'that is your role model? Good luck, kid!'at me, and it would be an appropriate comeback because these lovely ladies have lived their lives well, granted, but there are several steps between someone like me and them. They cannot be my immediate role model, because their lifestage is very different from mine, as you correctly state.

So I am glad someone mentioned this group and I am so pleased it was you!

Me: Yes, dearie, as PVW takes out the rocking chair and adapts her granny voice, I can talk about them, because I'm within their group, the longtime married ladies (35 and up) crowd.

Once you are married and in mommyville and in your 30s, like it or not, you are considered to be in matronville.

But you can aspire to this model although you are not there yet. You can aspire to be this model when you are in your 40s to 50s. Not that far away if you are in your mid to late 30s, especially if you were to get married.

I mean it in the sense of keeping up your looks of course, and numbers of these women do, but they are in a place where they don't care who pays attention, because they have lived their lives well, as you said.

But here is the thing, there are matronly women who don't look their age, ie., the old joke of the MILFs who seem to be stuck at 35 in looks, that even younger men seem to be checking them out.

Do they meet the basic boner test, I suppose so, but it is irrelevant to these women because they are in a good place, happily married--they are not trying to get male attention. If some think they are not hot as before, they go pfft! If others think they are still hot, it's only gravy.

gunner451 said...

"Women who do this are absolutely LOATHED by you guys. And yet, that is exactly what you would advice a woman with a colourful past to do, if you care about her (as in, if she were a relative of yours). I understand this, of course. But a woman who follows this particular advice will undoubtedly meet with a lot of resistance from the 'betas' she starts to consider when she is closer to the Wall. But...what is the alternative solution for her - plan for loneliness for the rest of her life?"

Spacetraveller,

While what you said is true what I've given as advice recognizes that there are tons of "blue pill" betas out there that will take you up on your offer given you present an attractive enough package. "Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread". However, the more "colorful" your past the less likely that you'll be happy in that kind of relationship and the more likely it is that you'll destroy both his life and your own. And yes, once she hits the wall it becomes very unlikely that she'll be able to meet someone acceptable to her so she might as well start looking for some cats.

Spacetraveller said...

Danny,

Please don't be like that, mate!
Come on...please...

OK, I promise I won't jump on you like in the last thread :-)

Scout's honour!...
(Even though I was never a scout)...but you know what I mean...honour, you know, salutes and stuff...gentleman's handshake and all that...well, I mean ladies' handshake...no, no, I didn't mean to call you a lady, I meant I as a lady shaking your hand...

Well, you know what I mean!
:-)

@ Carnivore,

"I was thinking more along the lines of a husband picking up his woman, pinning her against the wall and...."

Hahahahahahaha!
Stop it, you, you're making the good girls round here blush.

@ PVW,

And the blushing continues...
:-)

"Yes, dearie, as PVW takes out the rocking chair and adapts her granny voice..."

Hahahahahahahaha!

D'you know, it has suddenly struck me that you could well be younger than me!

I am sorry! I didn't mean to suggest you were old or anything!

I meant to say that your marital status gave you a certain immunity that I am not entitled to (not that there is any entitlement issues going on)...oh, I am getting into all kinds of flusters today...between you and Danny I am really getting acquainted with the 'foot in mouth' syndrome today, for sure!

Hahahahaha!

"But here is the thing, there are matronly women who don't look their age..."

I know these women exist...but even so, there are men here who will swear blind that they can tell any woman's true age...even if she can still pass their boner test.

Ceer says 'men have a nose for this sort of thing'. I guess we can call it 'male intuition'.

But you are right, these women just don't care as much as they used to, because they are indeed happily married. They may care just a teeny weeny little bit, because every woman wants to know that she is still attractive, but not to the level of the 'attention whore' another 'favourite' of The Manosphere :-)

And, let's face it, this level of 'attention whoring' is really a new disease, borne out of the Facebook generation.
Granny simply had no means to acquire so many admirers in her day, other than Freddy the postman with the squint, Tony the milkman and young Stan down at the butchers :-)

Spacetraveller said...

Gunner,

"While what you said is true what I've given as advice recognizes that there are tons of "blue pill" betas out there that will take you up on your offer.."

Gunner!
You are dumping on your unsuspecting beta brother?

Whatever happened to 'bros before hos'??

Hahahahaha!
Just teasing...

I know you mean well. You sound like Deti. He advises ex-carousel riders to 'by all means go for it', but make sure to mean it when you say you are done with the carousel'. Which is good advice - for no man should be deceived into marrying a woman who will not be faithful to him (and vice versa of course).




This Old Man said...

You will get a lot of advice on this topic about how not to let yourself go, and how you can be more youthful and how you can maybe pass yourself for a woman half your age and how to catch the eye of boring, childish men. In other words, keep yourself together and try not to let yourself slide.

I am going to counsel differently – Be Magnificent.

Follow your compass and do not bow to foolish opinions, no matter how numerous and obstreperous those holding them may be. Be bold but not brassy, assertive but not dominant. Know everything and everybody and understand even more, yet keep your counsel until is called for. Speak little but, when you do, do so in a calm and commanding manner.

Speak in paragraphs and pack them so with meaning that there is not much left to say after you have spoken. When you don’t know, don’t offer. When you have not pondered it, don’t proffer your opinion and when you are wrong promptly acknowledge and correct your mistakes, even (especially) if you are the only one to notice. You will gain a reputation for forthrightness and wisdom that is beyond measure.

Be really, really good at something and let that carry your name. Don’t be bossy but know how to stand your ground and not yield to bullies or fools. Stand up for the weak and afraid and be charitable of the ignorant and misguided but do not allow them to hurt others to the measure that you can prevent it.

Be a woman of honor and decency. Be kind and compassionate, be merciful. Be generous of your wealth and your time. Be discrete and reserved, yet prompt with your counsel when it is called for. Have your advice be thoughtful and considerate and appropriate to the people and the circumstances. When you have given it, let it go. It is up to the other party to profit or forfeit. You will have done your part.

Be good company. Be witty and charming but don’t hog the spotlight. People will remember you most fondly if you made them the stars while shinning the spotlight on them, just remember to keep it in measure of their own boldness. Know how to cook a Christmas dinner and to how to whip a quick dinner in 10 minutes from whatever happens to be in the icebox, how to steep a proper cup of tea and how to brew a magnificent pot of coffee, how to open a wine bottle and pour a mug of beer.

Be well and broadly read. Know Austen and Tolstoi and Churchill and de Tocqueville, and Borges and Tacitus and Aristophanes and Luo Guanzhong and Lady Murasaki. Read, above all, the classics, since they have survived this long for a reason. Read science fiction which, in this day and age, is the only literature of ideas we have left.

Learn to play an instrument and learn it well or, at the very least, cultivate a refined and broad musical taste. Know Bach and Phillip Glass and Tchaikovsky and de Falla. Know the Clancy Brothers and Woody Guthrie and Adele and Bo Diddly and Ravi Shankar. Learn to recognize and enjoy the music of the French and the Swedes and the Indians, Japanese and Bolivians. Learn to trust and revere silence but also let the hills in your life be alive with the sound of music.

This Old Man said...

Since you are talking about hitting a wall of some kind – By the way, hitting walls hurts, especially if they are made of brick or mortar. Your manosphere must be a cruel, cruel place to use such metaphors – I will assume that you speak of attracting a man to marry you. If so you have to ask yourself, what kind of man do you want?

Is it a man of substance, of compassion, understanding and wisdom? A man who recognizes and respects the integrity and substance in you? Or is it a man who has not managed to overcome the selfishness and immaturity of youth.

Since you seem to like movies, do you want him to be Dr. John Prentice? Or even Nickie Ferrante (An Affair to Remember), a previously flawed man (an alpha cad in the strange terminology used in this blog) who by the end of the movie has managed to grow into a worthwhile human being (plus he is Cary Grant, after all)? Maybe even, Sam Baldwin (Sleepless in Seattle), well-meaning and good hearted but still irresolute and ineffectual? Or do you wish to settle for one of the long parade of aimless, whinny, boring, nearly useless, slovenly nincompoops who seem to be what passes for romantic leads in this day and age?

Be a lighthouse. Shine a beacon into the darkness and all manner of ships will come to you. Oh, there will be dinghies and catamarans and rowboats and dirty freighters and smelly tankers but, there will also be majestic Ocean Liners and mighty Battleships.

OK, I know that lighthouses work the other way around so, don’t rain on my metaphorical parade.

No one can offer guarantees that the stately ship you are awaiting will land upon your shores but, even if it doesn’t you will still be able to shine your light upon your past and contemplate the still waters of a life well lived.

PVW said...

@ST:

"Yes, dearie, as PVW takes out the rocking chair and adapts her granny voice..."

Hahahahahahahaha!

D'you know, it has suddenly struck me that you could well be younger than me!

I am sorry! I didn't mean to suggest you were old or anything!

I meant to say that your marital status gave you a certain immunity that I am not entitled to

Me: Huh, we got you turning colors--tee hee! I realize what you meant and that you didn't imagine you meant anything disparaging at all about my age. I believe I am most likely a few years older than you, so no worries, but it is, if anything, about pulling your leg, lots of matrons who are younger than 50--they just don't look it or they are not thought of in that fashion, but they live it!

gunner451 said...

This Old Man,

Are you sure you're a guy? This sounds like the hamster has run-a-muck. Talk about catering to the narcissistic leanings of women this is it and will guarantee a cat filled future for whatever woman focuses on this.

Spacetraveller said...

@ This Old Man,

Wow. Outstanding advice.
*curtsey*!!!

I am absolutely stunned. If I followed all of your advice to the letter, I would be hors de ce monde, simply out of this world :-)

So I will (try)!

"Speak in paragraphs and pack them so with meaning that there is not much left to say after you have spoken."

I have nothing to say! Result!

"...but also let the hills in your life be alive with the sound of music."

Aaaaah, music to my ears...
:-)

This is another 'brain tattoo' comment.
Simply beautiful. Magnificent, even.
Thank you very much!

I get the distinct impression that you are a priest ...or have I just been to one too many confessions...

@ PVW,

Whew! I am glad you have a sense of humour. I was starting to sweat a little...I mean ... perspire.

Hahahahaha!

Gunner,

QUOI???
You don't find This Old Man's advice beautiful?
What do you have against it, actually? Is it because it sounds unattainable?

I don't understand how you could read 'narcisssism' into what he just said either. Please explain it to me like I am a 6 year old...


Ceer said...

@ Spacetraveller

Can one recede in confidence? I am not sure - can you?

Certainly. I remember the story of one of my RPG guildies and her boyfriend. He was a construction worker, made good money. When my friend said there was relationship problems, I gave her the alpha and beta lists. She said her boyfriend was nearly all alpha, but had lost confidence when he lost his job. She had gotten him a job as her subordinate at Target to make ends meet...but that didn't last long. She moved out and started apprenticing at a tattoo parlor.

Come to think of it, a serious blow like job loss, failing school, or death of a loved one can have a serious impact on men's dominance level. This isn't something women typically understand about men, much less are able to cope with.

This Old Man said...

Ah, Gunner!

But of course you would react that way!

This is advice I have been offering to young men and women for many years now. It is advice I have been trying to follow all of my adult life though, alas, I still have ways to go. I only tailored in a small way to her post and whatever I think I have learned about her from this blog.

The advice is not sex specific and you, yourself would do well to heed its contents. For you I would add: learn to wash and iron a shirt and to mend a tear. Learn a language, or two or three so that you can start to learn how other people get to see the world in ways that are not the ones you grew up with. Learn your own language well so that you can know the actual meaning of words such as “narcissism” and can recognize clever but failed metaphors like “hamster” for what they are.

Learn to quiet the noise between your ears for the world has much knowledge to offer you, if you will only listen. Learn to hear the singing of the birds, the gurgling of the brook and the whispering of the wind, for in them you shall find peacefulness. Learn to listen to the musings of the sages and the cries of the beggars, to the whisperings of the old men and even the babbling of infants for they all contain wisdom.

Learn to hook your own fish and to shoot your own meat and to raise your own vegetables, and learn to do it the manly way scaling them and gutting them and cleaning them so they are ready to cook, don’t just hand them over to other to do the distasteful part. A true man fights his own fights and does his own dirty work.

You sound young, so there is hope for you. If you would be a man (or as you seem to think it is pronounced, an alpha) I have not much to offer beyond the words of the poet, but that should be enough:


IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
Rudyard Kipling, 1895

This Old Man said...

@ DT
I don’t know about England or Switzerland but I am afraid the Seminaries over here are not necessarily valiant storehouses of wisdom.
Not that I have much claim to wisdom of my own, though you seem to think I have perhaps a thimbleful. For this I thank you. I am afraid I am just my father’s son who was his father’s before me.

This Old Man said...

Sorry, I meant @ST

just visiting said...

@ This Old Man

Beautiful advice for women.

@ Gunner

I'm confused. The men of the sphere complain about vapid shallow narcissistic women. A woman following This Old Man's advice would be developing substance, no?

dannyfrom504 said...

ST-

NOPE. sorry.

Ceer said...

@ This Old Man

You sound like a woman giving this advice. The language is flowery enough, but you contradict yourself in places.

A woman should not be "commanding". Any woman asking for advice like this will not likely know the difference between commanding and bossy.

A woman can elicit love and respect from men by how she treats them and the mannerisms she uses. Bossy is very much the opposite of this.

I'd like to say that being broadly read is a good idea, but hypergamy may have other plans. Instead, think of a wide literary experience as being LESS valuable than inner strength, but something desirable to pass on to the next generation.

just visiting said...

Gentlemen, in This Old Mans defense, he explicitely says not to be domineering and bossy. He does maintain to be assertive and to not suffer bullies and fools.

I don't see a problem with this. It would weed out men wanting weak supplicating victims, instead of loving , giving, femininely submissive co captains.

Spacetraveller said...

JV,

+1.

Wow, this is interesting...

I too am stunned as to why This Old Man's advice is not at all appealing to the younger men here.

Is this a generational thing, I wonder?

Ceer, I get your objection to the 'flowery' language!
I, of course, love it. It smacks of the old type 'romance' which is long gone, but which we as women still crave - at least from time to time (and yes, we know we are not going to get it, lol. We know feminism killed off that type of thing long ago).

This Old Man is not 'romancing' us ladies, granted, he is giving advice in a fatherly way, but one would imagine that 'This Old Woman' got seriously romanced in her day, (the lucky Dame :-) just from the type of language This Old Man is using :-)

Maybe it's a question of style? The 'raw dominance' of you young studs is also appealing (don't stop!) but perhaps JV and I smell the old type of romance and we are mesmerized by it? Simply because we don't encounter it everyday? Or am I just speaking for myself, here, JV, please let me know lol...

Any other ladies give the 'thumbs up' to the flowery language of This Old Man?

Any other young men here rolling their eyes?

Hahahahahahaha!

This Old Man said...

Ceer,


If you would communicate you will do it in a language that will be listened to and understood by the other. If women speak differently from men and you talk to them as you would a man, they will not hear you.

I will grant that it was not written for you but go back and read it again. I said a woman should not be bossy and I did not say that she should be commanding.

A woman, or a man for that matter, who will be listened to, needs to speak with confidence and authority. You apparently have never moved in circles where authority is exercised or where highly technical issues are discussed. The tentative and the timid are never listened to in there.

Besides, a woman can indeed be commanding, if she will only temper it with grace. I had a great grandmother who everyone referred to as “regal” who, after rejecting many suitors went on to marry the lawyer – at a time when lawyers were few and far between – and then raise twelve children with him.

Less knowledge is never better than more knowledge. You can always choose not to use the knowledge that you have. You can never choose to use the knowledge that you don’t.

The list, and it is by no means complete, is a list of things to aspire to if you will to be a better person. It is not a Chinese menu where you pick one from column A and one from B and one from C. You can have inner strength and book smarts at the same time.

Not to shock your system too much but, I have known many women who fulfill good parts of this agenda who are highly successful and married and with children. Very few have been divorced. Not a single one of the unmarried ones has even a single cat. They are much too busy with their lives and responsibilities to look after pets.

From your comment, you seem to derive your knowledge of mankind from reading romance novels. Fine but, don’t pretend that is representative of mankind or that it allows you to know better. For “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy” (Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, ca. 1599).

This Old Man said...

@ST

Maybe because they know that a woman who pursued this in earnest would be way above their station and go to better men?

just visiting said...

Love the flowery language! It requires a strong man to carry it off.

This Old Man, I suspect that there are a lot of men who have never encountered the type of woman that you speak of. I've alluded to this in the comment section of a few posts here.

For those of us who have known such women of substance, these queens bear no resemblance to the snotty demanding entitlement princess so common in today's world.

But, such women exist. Their commanding presence is tempered with grace and dignity. And they don't suffer bullies or fool's, lol.







Spacetraveller said...

JV and This Old Man,

I don't disagree at all with either of you. In fact, I suspect you have hit a very painful target for those men who have never and therefore feel they will never meet anything approaching what This Old Man describes above.

So how about women of today showing the men what we can do?
Starting..... now!

It only takes one, doesn't it?

We can all at least in theory aspire to what This Old Man prescribes...

Prescribes...
Ah, I know!
This Old Man, if you are not of the cloth, are you a doctor?

Your advice is certainly what the doctor ordered...for today's SMP!

But for sure, it will be a hard pill to swallow...

PVW said...

@ST, I see nothing wrong with anything Old Man has said; it sounds very old school, the advice of a fatherly or grandfatherly type advising the young on how to live with grace, character and joie de vivre.

Yes, it does sound romantic, because it is out of fashion today, a certain type of idealism, that of an elder urging the youngers to to live well.

It is very charming!

Funny, that Kipling poem, IF, my dad once had a copy of it, and I remember reading it as a child, even though I was a girl. The message of character targeted to young men in 19th c. Britain is just as useful to a young woman in the modern world. Except that in my mind, the message was "you will be a woman, my daughter."

Oh, and that quote from Hamlet, it is one I once put into calligraphy years ago at a time when I felt really limited by my circumstances--there was far more, in my mind, of importance than what I was surrounded by. I had a job I hated, I wanted to be an academic, and I was just biding my time.

Today, I have the quote on my blogger home page, as a reminder of my job as an academic, that there is much to think of and ponder.

Grasshopper said...

@This Old Man…
“(said to ST)…Is it a man of substance, of compassion, understanding and wisdom? A man who recognizes and respects the integrity and substance in you? Or is it a man who has not managed to overcome the selfishness and immaturity of youth...”

Unfortunately sir it is the selfishness and immaturity of women in their youth and beyond that causes them to overlook and pass over men of substance, compassion, etc. Many women candidly admit they find these traits unattractive.

Have you considered the hurt this causes these men of integrity? What has one of your advanced years and wisdom learned about compassion for hurting people? Or can you only understand the woman’s point of view and not the man’s?

“(said to gunner) …Learn to listen to the musings of the sages and the cries of the beggars, to the whisperings of the old men and even the babbling of infants for they all contain wisdom…”

You would do well to heed your own advice here. Babblings of infants contain wisdom to you but young men’s words do not? But this wasn’t really a sincere attempt at giving advice, was it? Dare I say it was a rather transparent attempt to make an impression on the ladies.

Congratulations, they love you. But in the process you’ve thrown your brother men under the bus twice now. That speaks volumes about you sir and I guarantee you has not gone unnoticed. (Google the term ‘white knight’)

Savvy men do not trust white knights. Might they find themselves the next one thrown under the bus? Younger men may not be able to articulate it as well but in their gut they’ll know something is not right with you. Maybe you don’t care what men think of you and being appealing to women is all that matters to you. Of course that is your prerogative in life.

But if you sincerely want to help men and have them heed your advice – they have to trust you first.

Work on that please before you dole out any more advice to men.

Grasshopper

PVW said...

@ST, further thoughts...

I can see why for some manosphere dwellers, Old Man's views might seem problematic.

The values and competencies being discussed here are seen by many as traditionally male, so modern critics of women adhering to these might be seen in manosphere terms as evil feminists who have become masculinized in their usurpation of male prerogatives. They emasculate men in turn.

The manosphere dwellers, in my view, focus so much upon their traditionalist views of women as submissive, etc., that they forget other aspects of femininity which have required women to have inner strength, character and competence.

That is why I'm such a strong supporter of mutual submission.

Remember the Proverbs 31 wife? That is what Old Man is getting at:


Proverbs 31:10-31

King James Version (KJV)


10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.

22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

metak said...

@ ST

Any woman that decides to follow even few of the tips TOM provided would stand out from the rest, just like lighthouse does on a small island. When I've read it for the first time I thought to myself "I can easily replace 'woman' with 'man' and learn so much from it.". Although English is not my native language and I use it mostly for benevolent purposes. ST, you've been the unfortunate victim of use or misuse of that knowledge. (My stupid jokes. ;-)) I can appreciate beauty and wisdom.

"But for sure, it will be a hard pill to swallow..."

This is the police ma'am. I repeat.. this is the police.
Ma'am, step away from the pills and hand me a slice of that delicious pie! ;-)
-- Later at the Police Station...
- Police officer Metak talking to his Chief...
- Metak: Should we let her go?
- Chief: Are you crazy Metak! She was dealing new colorful pills! Again!
- Metak: But Chief... I would really like some more of that pie...
- Chief: Last time it was curry... now pie... where do we draw the line Metak? Where? ;-)

just visiting said...

The advice bestowed on women by This Old Man was to develop character and inner strength. Something lacking in many women today. Again, I see this as a good thing. The shallow vapid mentality of entitlement princesses will not go away without developing core character and inner strength. They cannot value what they have no inner experience of.

What seems to have derailed the conversation is what the men saw as encouraging narcissism. In other words, a woman developing strength and power.

Again, I cannot see how a woman will develop beyond shallowness if developing depth is seen as narcissistic.

I made reference to supplication and submission earlier as two entirely different things. One comes from a place of weakness and need. It cannot support or give. The other comes from a place of strength. It supports, nurtures and inspires.

So, as ST would say, explain it to me like I'm a six year old, because I don't understand the objection.

Spacetraveller said...

Thanks, Metak, for injecting much-needed humour here!

Splendid timing :-)

@ Grasshopper,

I think you make a different point from that which Gunner and Ceer make.
You take exception to TOM's more recent comment, is this right?

If it sounded annoying to you, I would understand that...

But is TOM really a white knight? Somehow I can't see it. He is giving advice which, if followed right would reverse exactly the kind of feral female behaviour you gentlemen are encountering, as PVW explains in her comment above.

I really don't get the anger towards him .

Sure, we like him because of his fancy way of expressing himself, but in fact, his advice is really hard stuff to pull off for any woman. It's all that oxymoronic stuff that requires the most delicate of balances...
It's like this piece of advice for trainee surgeons:
'Have a heart of steel, (actually it was 'something else' (pural) of steel, lol), strength of an ox and the daintiness of a flower...
Leaving these poor guys (and girls) thinking, WTF (excuse the french).

And as such, it is we the ladies who should be hating on TOM (To use urban parlance). We are the ones who have a lot of work to do, all of a sudden...

How is a 'strong yet gentle' woman reminiscent of feminism? I don't see it. To me, feminism is 'I am strong, strong, STRONG'! I see TOM's advice as being the opposite of that.

I am really baffled as to the response to TOM...
Are we ladies missing something serious??

I would have thought you guys would be behind TOM because he is requiring A LOT from women...remember his advice was primarily directed at us women. And this post is about advice for women...

And the other VERY important thing I missed before in TOM's comment to Ceer earlier was that it is indeed important to use the language of the person one is addressing.

"If you would communicate you will do it in a language that will be listened to and understood by the other. If women speak differently from men and you talk to them as you would a man, they will not hear you."

For TOM it certainly worked :)
Look how we are fawning all over him because he uses rather wordy 'feminine' language that we like :-) And yet he has a harder task for us than usual.
Another man may demand much less of a woman but use language that she would ignore...and she doesn't hear nor heed his advice...

So I think TOM is ultimately on your side, if he is getting women to listen to him.
See what I am saying?

I think a true white knight is more likely to say something like, 'Carry on your slutty ways, dear, there will always be a man round the corner who will man up and wife you up'.
TOM is advising that a woman be the equivalent of a saint and still not expect anything from you guys!

Why is it that you gentlemen are taking exception to him?


PVW,

"The manosphere dwellers, in my view, focus so much upon their traditionalist views of women as submissive, etc., that they forget other aspects of femininity which have required women to have inner strength, character and competence."

Great insight.
And I would add that submission by a woman who has no choice but to be submissive is not worth it. Better to have submission by a woman who chooses to be submissive when she could very well be otherwise.
It should be clear why this might be important.

That Proverbs 31 wife is clearly no 'weakling'. But she is still submissive.

Surely THIS woman is better than one who has to be submissive because if she isn't, she will go hungry...

@ JV,

"I made reference to supplication and submission earlier as two entirely different things. One comes from a place of weakness and need. It cannot support or give. The other comes from a place of strength. It supports, nurtures and inspires."

Bingo, JV. My thoughts exactly.

PVW said...

@ST:

How is a 'strong yet gentle' woman reminiscent of feminism? I don't see it. To me, feminism is 'I am strong, strong, STRONG'! I see TOM's advice as being the opposite of that.

Me: Because the strong yet gentle woman is feminine; she leads, she nurtures. Some have likened it to the energy of a true queen: regal, graceful. Queen Elizabeth, anyone?

I tend to think of it as the strong yet gentle leadership of the matronly woman....As an elder, she relishes her role in nurturing the younger ones, children as well as younger adults, improving the well-being of the community and so forth.

The radical feminazi wants to be strong and reject traditional feminine strengths.

metak said...

@ST

I use humour a lot when I'm dealing with concepts that come from Manosphere because this whole thing is hilarious to me... ;-)

I can't see how This Old Man's sugestions could be misinterpreted. Wisdom and good intentions are written all over it.

About that wall...

Do not try and avoid the wall. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. That there is no wall! ;-)

If a woman applies some of This Old Man's wisdom she'll be able to see trough the illusion. I can only try to imagine what kind of pleasure it would be to have someone like that beside you when you're thinking about that "till death do us part" part.

Ceer said...

@ This Old Man

Wow, I had no idea I insulted you so much as to make you so defensive. I'm truly sorry for having taken issue with some of your wording. Please bear in mind that this a comments section and some people have busy lives, and are unable to post up to your high standards without a full edit process.

Since you're new to this blog, I'll cut you some slack for being unaware, but I do work in a technical field. My view of women is derived from personal experience. Like all experiences, some of them are good, others bad.

My connotation of "commanding" may be different than yours. In my experience, there's a definite difference between women who directly and consciously try to command others (explicitly or implicitly) and women who use their inner strength and mannerisms to influence those around them. I think of the first group as "commanding" where as the second group to me is "influential".

You do a great job of self contradiction by implying I'm unable to get flowery language and then claiming I'm well read in the romance novel genre. Quite an entertaining and instructive way to use power with words. It's quite obvious you've been around people most of your life in positions of leadership. The cynicism and lack of directness shows.

This Old Man said...

Grasshopper,

You came to me with a complaint and not a challenge and I mean to address it accordingly. With a name like grasshopper how can anyone resist? I you listen, I may even get to call myself Master.

Let me try and explain myself.

Space Traveler posted a question about a station of life which I thought was wrongheaded (see Metak’s post) but which I thought gave me an opening for some general-type advice and to address in some small way what appeared to be her main concern. It was an answer meant for her though, of course, anyone can read it. I worded it such as I thought might resonate with her, particularly the second posting which was more personal.

Gunner451 and Ceer chose to challenge my response in content and in tone. In particular, Gunner chose to challenge my guy credentials. I don’t know about now but, in my time, challenging somebody’s guyhood mean that the shirts and undershirts would come off and guys would go at it at least until somebody bled. Even if you lost, next time the other guy would think about it longer before doing it again. Such a challenge must always be accepted. The web is a medium of words and the challenge will then be taken up in those terms.

My advice to Gunner was real, as he seems to be a guy who is not good at listening and everyone could use to do more listening than talking. I agree that the tone was not the best if I want him to listen but, there was the little matter of whether or not I am a proper guy. Ceer’s challenge was milder, so his rebuke was milder. Excepting the crack at the end about romance novels, all I did was address his points without flowery language. All this was done for my own satisfaction, not the women here. I can also assure you that no buses were involved in the making of those responses.

As to caring about what men think of me on the internet, you are right, I don’t. But neither do I care what the women think. They do not love me. They don’t even know me. They may like, or even love the words that I put down but, you know what? Millions love the words of Jane Austen and Charles Dickens and they are both still dead. But at least we know who those people were. In here, we know nothing. For all we know, Space Traveler is an 80 year old man pulling our leg because he does not have anything else to do all day and I am the youngish woman about to have some kind of accident with imaginary masonry. I care about what the people in my life, men and women, young and old think about me. The people here, not so much, and neither should you.

As for proffering advice, it is as it is. Trust has nothing to do with it. I could be the most well-meaning person in the world and still offer the lousiest and most misguided advice or, I could be as truculent as Loki (look it up) and still offer sterling advice. If I or anybody else offers you advice, it is for you to judge its value and use it or discard it.

This Old Man said...

I do not seek to earn your trust as I could never deserve it through this medium and you should never bestow it upon me, or Metak, or Space Traveler or Ceer or anyone else for whose honor you cannot personally vouch.

If you listen to nothing else I have to say but you listen to this one thing, I will consider myself a most fortunate man: Trust is more precious than jewels for, if lost or damaged jewels can be replaced. Trust, once broken, can never be fully restored. It can be mended but it will always have that crack that just won’t go away. Not only that but, misplaced trust can damage your safety, you fortune or your good name or those of the ones you love.

Place your trust only on those you know will rather choose death or dishonor than betraying you. Trust those who you know for sure love you without reservation, trust those who have stood guard over your sleeping body in a battle field, those have always had your back no matter the cost to them. Trust the people who have earned it through the hard slog in dire circumstances and those who have sought your welfare even against their better judgment. Trust no one else. Not the salesman, not the guy on television, not the girl who bats her eyelashes at you even (especially) if she is pretty. Not the politician, the financial advisor or the guy who claims to be your new best friend, least of all if he wants you to do just this one thing for him. Most certainly, do not trust guys in the internet whose face you have never seen and whose names you don’t even know for sure. Make people strive to earn your trust and make it hard and you, most likely, will not experience the pain of betrayal.

As for white knights, the only one of my acquaintance is this one:

Alice was walking beside the White Knight in Looking Glass Land. "You are sad." the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you." "Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day. "It's long." said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings tears to their eyes, or else - Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause. "Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes. Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested. "No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged, Aged Man. Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself. "No you oughtn't: that's another thing. The song is called 'Ways and Means' but that's only what it's called, you know!" "Well, what is the song then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered. "I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On a Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
So saying, he stopped his horse and let the reins fall on its neck: then slowly beating time
with one hand, and with a faint smile lighting up his gentle, foolish face, he began:


This Old Man said...

I'll tell thee everything I can;
There's little to relate.
I saw an aged, aged man,
A-sitting on a gate.
"Who are you, aged man?" I said,
" And how is it you live?"
And his answer trickled through my head
like water through a sieve.

He said "I look for butterflies
That sleep among the wheat:
I make them into mutton pies,
And sell them in the street.
I sell them unto men," he said,
"Who sail on stormy seas;
And that's the way I get my bread -
A trifle if you please."

But I was thinking of a plan
To dye one's whiskers green,
And always use so large a fan
That they could not be seen.
So, having no reply to give
To what the old man said,
I cried, "Come tell me how you live!"
And thumped him on the head.

His accents mild took up the tale:
He said, "I go my ways,
And when I find a mountain-rill,
I set it in a blaze;
And thence they make a stuff they call
Rowland's Macassar Oil -
Yet twopence-halfpenny is all
They give me for my toil."

But I was thinking of a way
To feed one's self on batter,
And so go on from day to day
Getting a little fatter.
I shook him well from side to side
Until his face was blue:
"Come tell me how you live," I cried,
"And what it is you do!"


He said "I hunt for haddocks' eyes
Among the heather bright,
And work them into waistcoat buttons
In the silent night.
And these I do not sell for gold
Or coin of silvery shine,
But for a copper halfpenny,
And that will purchase nine.

"I sometimes dig for buttered rolls,
Or set limed twigs for crabs;
I sometimes search for grassy knolls
For wheels of hansom-cabs.
And that's the way" (he gave a wink)
"By which I get my wealth -
And very gladly will I drink
Your Honour's noble health."


I heard him then, for I had just
Completed my design
To keep the Menai Bridge from rust
By boiling it in wine.
I thanked him much for telling me
The way he got his wealth,
But chiefly for the wish that he
Might drink my noble health.





And now if e'er by chance I put
My fingers into glue,
Or madly squeeze a right-hand foot
Into a left-hand shoe,
Or if I drop upon my toe
A very heavy weight,
I weep, for it reminds me so
Of that old man I used to know -
Whose look was mild, whose speech was slow
Whose hair was whiter than the snow,
Whose face was very like a crow,
With eyes, like cinders, all aglow,
Who seemed distracted with his woe,
Who rocked his body to and fro,
And muttered mumblingly and low,
As if his mouth were full of dough,
Who snorted like a buffalo -
That summer evening long ago
A-sitting on a gate.



As the Knight sang the last words of the ballad, he gathered up the reins,
and turned his horse's head along the road by which they had come.

Spacetraveller said...

@ TOM,

Your posts remind me of NC because of their length, and also his stance on giving advice :-)

You, like Metak are obviously not a fan of The Manosphere, I see.

Which is fair enough, of course...
Each to his own.

I can definitely relate to what you say about trust...how delicate it is...

I think you are the opposite of a white knight, personally.

I think you are actualy a black knight. And this is a compliment!

Allow me to explain...

Men complain all the time on the Manosphere that their wives cut them loose when they (the wives) are not 'happy'. I often wonder if this phenomenon is not due to some sense of dissatisfaction with her life because she has 'peaked' in terms of what she can achieve with her life. She may already have had a successful carrer, she is married, she has kids... Perhaps some women at some point start to wonder, 'is this all there is'? And the next you know...EPL.

And men in The Manosphere have correctly diagnosed this problem, I think, and have prescribed for themselves a decent enough solution, which is to 'game' such women to within an inch of her life, to become extra dominant with her, so she now has new targets to follow.
And yes, I have no doubt that 9 times out of ten, this works...

But you on the other hand, are asking women to essentially game themselves. Have never-ending goals...

And there is nothing more exhausting than to have to do something which seems the opposite of what one has already done, so strong, yet gentle, for example, is hard, especially when the 'strong' bit is done positively in the manner Ceer distinguishes from its darker side, above.

So if a woman who is bored with her life realises that in fact she is only on rung 40 out of 1,000 on the ladder to perfection, well, all thoughts of EPL will surely disappear as she strives to get to rung 41 and beyond.

So you are a black knight, really. You have the darkest game of all, because you want women to do all the work themselves, so men don't have to.
I respect that. I am sure men have plenty to do other than looking over their shoulder all the time to keep a woman at their side.
And frankly, women really do like to be challenged too. And trusted.

So maybe this is all a storm in a teacup?

I think both sides might probably agree that we are all on the same side.
There are just a few technical hitches based on communication mishaps and perhaps masculine boxer-style face-offs...

Life here is never boring, that's for sure, lol.

Metak,

"Do not try and avoid the wall. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. That there is no wall! ;-)"

There is no wall?
Oh, I don't know...there is certainly something that divides a woman's life squarely into two parts. The part where she was attractive to a wide range of men, and a part where she...isn't, anymore, except perhaps to her own entourage, which may or may not include a romantic/sexual partner of some sort.

I can well imagine that some women can obsess about this time-period, but certainly, I would disagree that it doesn't exist as a concept.

It is very real for women, Metak. There is no deying that.
But there are sensible ways of negotiating it. Which is what I was looking for in this thread. And it seems I have found it, in the many comments here. I agree with you entirely that TOM's way is at the top of the sensible options.
And then there are the ridiculously ineffective ways of handling this delicate epoque in one's life.

And those are to be avoided, of course.



Grasshopper said...

@This Old Man…
“(Said to Ceer)… “…You apparently have never moved in circles where authority is exercised or where highly technical issues are discussed…”

If you moved in these circles as you imply, you would understand the value of succinctly making your point. Particularly when speaking to men in authority.

Your response to me is so verbose it makes effective dialog with you very difficult.

I have to get to work and I do not have a lot of time right now. I’ll get back to this later this evening.

Grasshopper


@ST….

It is not TOM’s advice to women per se, some of which I actually thought was pretty good. If you noticed I was not making the advice he gave to women itself a point in my post to him.

Ceer said...

@ Spacetraveller RE: TOM

This Old Man's choice of words is revealing... particularly the use of the word "challenge". He places a lot of emotion in the interaction, then focuses on the relative power level he sees between people. That's how he comes off to me, anyway.

PVW said...

@ST:

You, like Metak are obviously not a fan of The Manosphere, I see.

I think you are actualy a black knight. And this is a compliment!

But you on the other hand, are asking women to essentially game themselves. Have never-ending goals...

So you are a black knight, really. You have the darkest game of all, because you want women to do all the work themselves, so men don't have to.

Me: I read TOM's comments as speaking to the dark side of the manosphere harping on the "wall." I mentioned that I was suspicious about the "wall" as per the manosphere, because underneath it is a certain level of ageism and contempt for ageing women, in their obsession over younger women. Of course, they really meant the greatest contempt for the ageing carousel riders, which I spoke of.

But some of their contempt is also for certain women who TOM alludes to, the highly accomplished 30 something types alot of manosphere dwellers have contempt for as overly ambitious spinsters tainted by feminism.

It doesn't matter that she might was never a carousel rider. Their glee is that she is ageing and unable to pull the type of man she might have pulled when she was younger. Yes, some will say, she has grace and charm on her side. But others will be glad for her commeupance, that she got poisoned by the feminist kool-aid, even if she isn't a feminist!

TOM (it seems to me) is reminding us that it is important to remember women's value across the life span, and that to even talk about "hitting the wall" belies that, when women who lack the superficiality of the former carousel riders are not obsessed over it. Moreover, grown men, it seems, might appreciate that they are ageing gracefully.

As for him telling women they have to do more and more (as a black knight), I didn't see it that way. He would have said the same message to a man as well as to a woman, namely you, as ST.

As for the wall, the manosphere dwellers would say the countdown is on. Yes, it is true, you are unmarried, but why obsess over it, really? All that matters is that you keep yourself in shape and live well. What else are you going to do?

My only obsession about my looks dating back from when I was a younger woman is that I have always been an exercise fiend, because I always wanted to be in the best of shape, and it has paid off with great dividends over the years.

The only difference between me back then and now is that I spend more money on hair products! Plastic surgery? I am not so vain....

metak said...

@ST

I think you missed the core of TOM's advice ST. ;-) It doesn't matter if woman doesn't achieve all those 'goals' TOM described. The main point as far as I can see it is the atitude towards herself and the world around her. To explore literature, nature, meditate, appreciate incredible beauty and simple things... etc. You know.. -> "Know Thyself." ;-)

"But you on the other hand, are asking women to essentially game themselves. Have never-ending goals..."

No. No game. It's our human nature to explore, learn new things, expand our perception of what is possible and what is not, to have open mind when dealing with unknown so it can someday become known.

"It is very real for women, Metak. There is no deying that."

Believe what you will and you shall receive it... ;-)
It's almost like religion. :-) What happened to women along the way? ;-)
It's about the perception of reality. Try, and put aside all of the mano-reality and focus entirely on your true inner self. Reevalute those mano-concepts under careful guidence from your heart and you'll probably hear it speak to you... like... rubbish! bollocks! get that thing away from me. ;-)

Ceer said...

@ PVW

The wall as something that operates against a woman's interests, but it's also a part of nature.

Manosphere men tend to bring up the wall to men and women for different reasons. For men, we sometimes need reminding that women are not invincible. They have their own difficulties in life. They have their own hopes and fears that can affect their choices. It's important information to us have. When a man operates based on his own experiences only, he risks loosing perspective.

For women, its provides insight into a potential difficulty so they can navigate around it. It's true that a woman can hit the wall whether or not she rides the carousel. To me, it speaks more to a woman's choices, not necessarily her morality. One reason why I hang out at female run blogs is that I enjoy helping good women avoid a fate that, to me, they don't deserve.

just visiting said...

Dwelling on the wall is counter productive to good dating. Self improvement is always good, but I think Metak would agree that one should strive for improvement through out life. Wall or no wall.

Some of the guys in the sphere take delight in it. And if that's their head space, then that's their head space. I can't date properly with that mindset. Taken to extremes, I could only imagine that it would create desperation,depression or an inferiority complex. Not exactly the makings of a fun date,lol.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Grasshopper and Ceer,

OK. I now can see that neither of you have any complaints about the advice TOM gave to women.
You have separate issues which you have both outlined...

Ceer,
About the 'placing emotion' in the interaction, you may notice that that is one of my traits too :-)

You may readily forgive ME for that, because I am a woman.
But TOM may also have this trait due to how things were done in his time (correct me if I am wrong, TOM) and therefore maybe he too should get a 'pass' because of this?

Is this what prompted Gunner to question if he was a man?

Interesting how different styles can sometimes cause offence even where this might not be anticipated.

"One reason why I hang out at female run blogs is that I enjoy helping good women avoid a fate that, to me, they don't deserve."

Aw, thanks Ceer!
Hope we ladies of the blogosphere can return the favour to the men who look out for us.
It's nice that we can learn from each other, albeit in anonymous fashion.

PVW,

Yes, I see what you are getting at.
There is no doubt that some men openly delight in the arrival of some womens' nemesis.
And innocent people sometimes get caught up in guilty people's war...

@ Metak,

"I think you missed the core of TOM's advice ST. ;-) It doesn't matter if woman doesn't achieve all those 'goals' TOM described. The main point as far as I can see it is the atitude towards herself and the world around her."

Oh I see his advice as such too!
I see his advice as a way for women to become their best selves.

I am not sure I could detox myself from the Manosphere, Metak. I think I am in too deep.
:-)

The Manosphere, for me, is already a sort of rehab facility that detoxes from feminist 'rehab from rehab'?
LOL.

just visiting said...

I think that it comes down to being your best possible self.

The wall takes on a heavy reality for women who are getting older who want marriage and children. There is a very real wall of time, at least with children if you want to have your own.

But, I think that self development, femininity,charm,physical fitness and a kind and cheerful personality improves the odds. I would just caution women to also be aware of their mindset.

metak said...

@ST & JV

Your mind maybe sees it that way.. now quiet the mind and let the heart to remove the wall that shouldn't even be there.. What say you? ;-)

We exist, we learn, we play, we grow,... there's no room for invisible walls..

-- Crazy Evil Mastermind has divised his most evil and cunning plan to create his ultimate superweapon capable of unimaginable destructive power...

Mastermind: I shall create a weapon capable of destroying entire continents!! And then.. I, will rule the world! Muahahahahaha
Evil-sidekick: Oooo... Master, you truly are genius. But where are you going to get all the enormous quantity of energy that will power up such a device?
Mastermind: SMACK! (smacks the sidekick on the head) You fool! All I have to do is plant a few ideas inside the subconscious mind of women and I'm done! Piece of pie! ;-)
Evil-sidekick: Master, no one can even come close to your fabulous intellect and malevolence...
Mastermind: You weasel... ;-)
Evil-sidekick: ..but Master.. I don't understand how is that going to give us the energy we need?
Mastermind: I've calculated that large numbers of women spend so much of their energy worying about their insecurities, invisible walls, funny looking pills and all kinds of crazy sh*t... so, I've decided to harness all that energy and use it as a weapon. You may applaud now... ;-)
Evil-sidekick: Brilliant, Master... simply brilliant... at least now, we'll have a chance against that super-cute kitty on youtube... ;-)

P.S. Don't be an accomplice. ;-)

Grasshopper said...

@ST… “… I am really baffled as to the response to TOM...”

I can understand your bewilderment to a point. I too was bewildered as I witnessed the fall out between you and CD some months back now. I thought her contributions were excellent just as you think TOM’s are. I never understood why the two of you react to each other the way that you do.

To be clear I am not asking you for an explanation about this. TOM impacts me I suppose in a similar way that CD impacts you. The analogy is not a perfect fit but it is the best ‘explain it to me like I’m a 6 year old’ way (to borrow a phrase you commonly use) I can come up with right now to address your inquiry.

That understood, I’ve decided to drop out of attempting to dialog with TOM. This is after all your internet home and I am here as your guest. You’ve made it clear he is welcome here also.

Grasshopper

Bob Wallace said...

I've seen women who were very attractive and popular when younger, who for various reasons missed out on home, husband and children (mostly, in my experience, because they wanted so much but had so little to offer), then when they hit that wall, turned into hostile spinsters, angry with and contempuous of men, blaming their problems on them, and living alone in an apartment with a cat, and on anti-depressants.

I recently had a guy tell me he's from southern California and he's met these kind of women by the thousands.

Spacetraveller said...

Metak,

I think JV outlines why I think there is indeed a wall.

Looks disappearing nothwithstanding, there is also the fertility declining issue.

I like the concept of the wall, because it reminds me of the biological clock.
Blue Pill world encourages women to forget all about the biological clock. 'Oh, don't worry, you still have sooooo much time!' (This said to a 42 year old woman in my presence recently).
Which is absolutely fine for those who don't want children.
For the rest of us however...

But you are right: no point getting obsessed by it...
(Says she who has written a whole post about it, lol).

Grasshopper,

Believe it or not, I think CD had a lot to contribute too!
I did not expel her, she chose not to visit The Sanctuary anymore. (Um, yes, I admit, I wasn't particularly charming to her at first, when I saw her comment about Tom Munson, but she apologised, and we made up. At least that's how I remember things).

Yes we disagreed a lot, because our views on life are entirely different, even though we have quite a bit in common.
But it was difficult to get used to err... her way of expressing herself. But I managed to get there. Pity she left just as I was getting used to her style.

So I understand if TOM's style had a similar effect on you.
I get it.
Perhaps on another topic, you and he might have the same viewpoint.

Like I am sure there are things CD and I can agree upon.

@ Bob,

Yes how sad. But I would hope that post wall, it would still be possible for them to have fulfilling lives, with or without the husband and children.
Especially those for whom life just dealt a harsh blow, and not because they necessarily made bad choices.

metak said...

At least I've tried to explain it to you as if you were 6 years old.. ;-)
I failed.. ;-) The addiction to sphere-shaped objects is too strong... ;-)

Like always I'm giving you crumbs... to show you the bigger picture... to remind you what really matters...

"Looks disappearing nothwithstanding, there is also the fertility declining issue."

You mean.. we're alive.. we age.. and why should we live our lives to our full potential and be happy when we can obsess about imaginary things...? ;-)

"I like the concept of the wall, because it reminds me of the biological clock."

If you're going to look at the world in that way, then there will be walls everywhere around you...
- fading looks -> hitting the wall
- biological clock -> another wall...
- Manosphere -> yep, you guesed it.. another wall..
- ... etc.

Those men in Manosphere don't give a (you know what) about women. Among all those blogs and what not you would expect at least some of them to show some humanity, compassion or some kind of emotion when it comes to women. I don't see men with good intentions writting blogs and informing men how Birth Control Drugs are destroying women's health and killing them, how make up and other products contain toxins that are easily absorbed through a skin of a woman, that's much more sensitive than that of a man, and later end up in tumoirs of brest cancer patients... I mentioned the abortion bussines the last time... I could go on and on... But they are too busy making up ridiculous new ideas to keep women insecure, submissive, and willing to do things that they normaly wouldn't do...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2085585/Parabens-Chemical-everyday-items-needs-investigation-scientists-discover-tumours-ALL-breast-cancer-patients.html

http://www.tbyil.com/FDA_Scandal_Drospirenone.htm

You can ignore me, young fool, but please, women should at least consider TOM's advice:

"If so you have to ask yourself, what kind of man do you want?
Is it a man of substance, of compassion, understanding and wisdom? A man who recognizes and respects the integrity and substance in you?"


..or PVW's:

"Yes, it is true, you are unmarried, but why obsess over it, really? All that matters is that you keep yourself in shape and live well. What else are you going to do?"

I'm saying this because I care... ;-)

This Old Man said...

Metak,

I don’t think it is foolishness, its fear. I think she was born on a blue sphere and heard its music and found it so discordant she searched for a way out. Showing great courage she traveled to a red sphere which, from a distance seemed much better. But the music of that sphere was also discordant so, she has lost hope and is busy looking at the ground and covering hear ears so she won’t have to listen. If she would only do like a Little Prince I once heard of and look up to the stars, she could then see her home where she belongs.

On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux (Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, 1943).

metak said...

@ST & TOM

That came out wrong... I meant me-young fool. ;-)

Sorry, I think in Slovenian and then translate that directly into English.. Sorry :-)

@TOM

Fear everywhere...

Spacetraveller said...

Metak,

No, I read your comment as you intended! No worries...

I really do appreciate that you care. This is one thing I adore about you.
And, I am not addicted to The Manosphere, lol.
I take the good bits and leave out the rest...

And, as I also said to Ceer, I hope that we ladies also offer something in return. If for nothing, at least for the 'female perspective' that may be unfamiliar to you men.

@ TOM,

Le petit prince! En fait, c'est la belle Bellita qui est expert dans ce domaine. Moi, je l'ai lu quand j'étais petite, parce qu'à l'époque je vivais dans le monde francophone...

Vous avez raison: On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. Pour moi, l'essentiel est d'avoir un coeur plein d'amour et de la sincérité...

Je vous ècoute. Le Manosphere, c'est qu'un outil pour me préparer mieux pour cette vie d'adulte. Rien que ça.
Mais il faut pas oublier que chacun son service dans ce monde. Je m'en sers parce qu'il est à dispo, ce qui est bien. Je fais pas d'histoire...
Je prends n'import quel conseil, de n'importe qui, si ça va m'aider...


:-)

Hey Metak, like you, I think better in another language, sometimes.

Write to us in Slovenian from time to time. Whyever not?

For one, what's Google translator for, otherwise?

:-)

metak said...

"Hey Metak, like you, I think better in another language, sometimes."

It's insane... for the most part I think and communicate with my family and friends in Serbo-Croatian (Bosnian-my native language), interact with other people around me in Slovenia in Slovenian language then I read and write in English... plus make up jokes and such in English... Spanish and Italian were also there among others but they've decided that I wasn't thinking enough 'flowery' thoughts in their language and decided to leave... ;-) Vafancul* to them! ;-)

When I say 'translate' I'm referring mostly to process of writting down of my own thoughts. I'm also using Google translate occasinally.

"Write to us in Slovenian from time to time. Whyever not?"

Lahko bi ti pisal, ST, o mnogih stvareh. O lepoti življenja, o lepoti ljubezni, o lepoti, ki se skriva v najmanjši malenkosti. Rekel bi ti, da ne obstaja kaj takega, kot je nevidni zid. Predvsem pa rekel bi ti, da ne skrbi. ;-)

Ceer said...

@ Metak & This Old Man

Troll harder.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Ceer,

It's Friday night madness at The Sanctuary!

@ Metak,

Nevidni zid? Ampak vidim, da Metak!

Hahahahaha!
I really hope Google is saying to you what I intend and not something rude or crude.

just visiting said...

@ Metak

Your philosophy mirrors mine a lot of mine.

@ Metak
Re the manosphere

Scorpionic energy. Your vantage is from the eagle/phoenix.




just visiting. said...

@ Ceer

Metak isn't a troll. But his views on mastery and MGTOW come from a different viewpoint than the sphere.

Anonymous said...

ST, C'est pvw; combien de langues parlez-vous? Lesquelles?

Spacetraveller said...

JV,

Scorpionic energy??

Metak,

I know the feeling re having to negotiate life in several languages...

@ PVW,

Ah, vous aussi, vous êtes bilingue?
Impec!

Pour répondre à votre question, il faut savoir que, moi, j'avais pas le choix. J'ai vecu dans differents pays dans ma vie...et ma mère est professeur de langues...
Français, allemand, italien, norvegien, un peu d'hollandais, et bien sûr à cause de norvegien, je comprends aussi un peu de danois et suédois.
Il y a aussi mes langues maternelles africaines - il y en a deux.

Je crois que ça suffit pour l'instant :-)

Anonymous said...

Salut, ST, PVW, encore...J'ai etudie francais au lycee, et M. PVW est quebecois...C'est magnifique, que vous etes "polyglot." Votre mere est africaine, votre pere?

Spacetraveller said...

PVW,

:-)

J'adore les quebecois. Il y en a beaucoup ici en Suisse...

Nous, on est tous africains dans la famille :-)

C'est hypersympa d'être 'polyglot'. Je trouve ça superb parce qu'on pourrait communiquer avec beaucoup de monde... en leur propre langue...

PVW said...

Salut!

ST:

J'adore les quebecois.

Moi: Mais bien sur; ils sont tres adorables! Nous aimons visiter au Quebec, des vacances amusants.

ST: Nous, on est tous africains dans la famille :-)

Moi: Ah bien; j'ai plusieurs des etudiants comme vous. Leurs parents sont africains; ils sont grandi aux Etats Unis. Je ne suis pas certaines; ils sont nes en Afrique ou aux Etats....

ST: C'est hypersympa d'être 'polyglot'

Moi: Absolument; je suis jalouse!

Anonymous said...

The advice I am giving is for women not men. I would tell you to "settle" before you hit the wall. No man wants to end up with a woman that gave the most attractive years of her life to other men then offers up the vestige of her health and beauty right before it is gone. Men want shared memories of time spent together while you still had your sex appeal and when his sex drive was more potent (no I don't need Viagra).

I would also bury any photo albums of your past that show a vibrant younger version of you because you don't want to remind him of what he will never have.

If you had a colorful past don't go into detail about it. At the same time acknowledge you had one, guys hate women that slut it up then try to pass themselves off as ladies later in life. When we find out (and we will) that we were deceived into viewing you in a certain light the carpet gets pulled out from under you.

FYI
Women that are approaching the wall go out of their way to flirt with me when they used to ignore me and look away.

Women that have hit the wall offer me sex and I am not interested.

You want someone to hold hands with, love you and walk through the park in the last 30 years of your life then you need to "settle" now!.





Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous at Feb 23,

Excellent advice! I hope many women take this to heart.

The bit about 'colourful pasts' is a difficult one, and I think you negotiated it very well. In the event a woman has a 'colourful past' it is unfair (to her future husband) if she is silent about it. On the other hand, she must not go on and on about it, because it is distasteful to the man she is now with, and may indicate that she loves to remember the past...

Happy medium, yes.

Of course, best not to have a colourful past in the first place...and if you do, forfeit marriage altogether.
Perhaps this is harsh...?

I sure agree with you that it is best for a woman to 'settle' way before she hits that wall. Makes things easier for her.

But...in this day and age, having s desire to marry does not mean you actually do, what with the MGTOW crowd ruining it for us :)
Just teasing! :P

Everyone has to wait longer than they wish, because we are all extra cautious, extra confused, extra jaded than our grandparents. And it will be women who pay the price as it is us who need marriage more than men do.

Arggghhh, the trials of life...

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Bryan said...

Ladies,

Want to lessen the visual impact of The Wall? For the love of God DO NOT CUT YOUR HAIR OFF!

Nathalie Uy said...


When you feel like quitting think about why you started. (y)
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