It came as a total shock to me when I heard that he and Heidi Klum had split up.
This was one couple I always believed would make it to the very end.
As an eternal optimist, I hope this is not the end of 'Team Seal' though.
They renewed their wedding vows every year, they seemed in love with each other. He in particular seemed to be very expressive in the way he felt about his family.
And yet, they split.
But...was the writing on the wall all along?
I come from a family and a social group of 'quiet men'.
I too am 'quiet' in real life.
I do however talk a little bit more than the men in my entourage. Like at least one word per day more :-)
Given my background, I find that I am 'allergic' to men who 'talk too much'. I have female friends for that!
I have become used to the 'strong silent' type, so for me personally, 'quiet' is my particular hallmark of masculinity.
So, hearing Seal gush forth after the breakup of his marriage, I was not surprised to note the familiar hives starting up all over my skin.
In particular, I note the 'quietness' of Heidi Klum.
This is a role reversal I don't see very often.
So naturally, it has elicited my curiosity.
Seal is an extremely well-spoken and eloquent man (we Brits are suckers for each others' accents).
Moreover, he appears to be the very epitome of masculinity, whatever criteria you use. He has been described as 'alpha' by some men in the Manosphere, using various yardsticks.
Even the scars on his face add to this phenomenon.
Heidi Klum had said before how tall he was. Apparently he is 6ft 4 or thereabouts.
He had a hard childhood but overcame all to become one of the most famous men in the world.
So top marks for fulfilling his potential.
And yet, watching him, I was reminded of an incident with Wanda Sykes (the american comedian and actress who is so funny, one look at her and laughter is immediately induced. As the sidekick to Jane Fonda in 'Monster-in-law', for example, she is absolutely hilarious).
Sykes was being interviewed in London many years ago, and the topic of Prince Charles leaving Princess Diana for Camilla Parker-Bowles came up.
She looked straight at the camera in a way only comedians know how and said, "Chucky, yer doin' it wrong, honey, Yer doin' it wrong! Yer supposed to go from the older woman to the younger one, not the other way round, stupid!"
I still laugh out loud when I remember that.
My first instinct was to scream at Seal, "Yer doin' it wrong, brother, yer doin' it wrong!"
But no. Let him show his soft side. Let him be 'beta' as long as he chooses.
With any luck, Heidi Klum will return the favour one day and 'chase him back'.
It should be a dance of Tango.
One thing he said however, which made me think is this:
"Heidi made me a better man."
Can a woman make a man 'a better man'?
Like a man can make a woman a 'better woman'?
Does a man need a woman to make him a better man? Or is it just nice to have?
Can a man who has encountered such a woman ever let go? Is this why Seal is so helplessly 'mushy'?
It is highly publicised that when Seal met Heidi, she was pregnant with someone's baby.
Some men (and women) might find it incompehensible that he didn't run fast in the other direction.
But I don't, in this case.
Afterall, Seal was not deceived. He chose to take this woman on fully knowing she was pregnant.
This woman who 'made him a better man'.
(In any case, it would have been hard in this case to convince Seal the baby was his, had any attempt been made to deceive him. He would have had to be Michael Jackson to believe this :-)
There must have been something special about Heidi Klum.
Any suggestions?
Is it just because she is a beautiful woman? Somehow I think not. Because the world is full of beautiful women.
But I am willing to be corrected on this if indeed this is the case.
Did Seal get it horribly wrong?
Did he fail to spot a 'reluctant bride' all along?
Despite all his external 'alpha' traits, is he deep down just another 'beta' dude who just happens to be rich and famous?
45 comments:
I've read rumors (in german magazines) that she's actually not that nice in private; but a cold, hard businesslady.
Don't know if it's true. But since he's mushy, maybe she got tired of it and he of her...
And weren't they married for 7 years? They made movies and songs here about the accursed 7th year
@ Anonymous,
I also heard rumours that he had a hot temper, which he refuted in his interview.
General question: what exactly is 'cold and hard'?
I have never heard this as an insult to a man, but hear it often against women.
I thought I knew what it meant, but now I am not so sure.
Anyone care to explain?
I had known that Seal was raising a child Heidi had conceived with another man, but I had no idea that she was pregnant when they met! =( Now my reaction is, "How could he have failed to see this coming . . . ?" But that's not very fair to him.
It would be better to ask, as you do, Spacetraveller, what else it was about Heidi Klum that made it easy for him to overlook that.
And wouldn't it be a real lesson to all of us if it were the same thing that has made her leave him?
The pregnancy was a red flag, but I'm sure there was something deeper, in her personality, that would have been a warning to someone who knew what to look for.
Hmmm, Bell,
It gets worse...
Seal himself says that shortly after they met, she told him that she was 3 weeks pregnant.
He thought it might be his, but she said to him: "No, it's not yours, stupid!"
Three things.
You do the math, Bell.
(Exactly! If you think about it, not much time between men, is it?)
Second, he stayed despite the tone of her answer?!
Third, had Seal been the same race as the father of the baby, do you see how easy it would have been to deceive him? Am I being REALLY cynical here?
Some might say, Seal is an 'internal' beta despite his alpha physique...
Other issues perturb me with all this business...
Their youngest child, who is described as one of their 'biological' children does not, er...how shall I put this..appear to share genetic material with Dad...
Maybe Seal is another Michael Jackson afterall?!
And, minor point, but one worth making in this context...why does he appear to be wearing nail varnish?
Worrisome, scary, strange all at once!
I have NO clue who the hell Seal is (i knew he made music but thats it)
But from i've read you girls say, he is the definition of a Beta male in manosphere.
Raising another man's child, though noble i guess, is very beta.
Flaring tempers when you aren't in control of a situation is also Beta.
Renewing vows every year is screaming beta
This just just looks/sounds like a guy who was struct with Oneitis for a beautiful girl.
ST
Cold and hard is made as an unsavory characteristic for women since, as you know, men prefer a warm loving gushy partner.
And where as for men it is a compliment as when are supposed to be calculating hard, take the brunt of abuse kind of creatures.
it's a definition that plays to the heart of our natural behaviors.
+JMJ+
@Spacetraveller
It just occurred to me that there is quite a contrast between your post about Mark Wahlberg and this post about Seal! Wahlberg is a natural leader (his "Catholic Game" influencing not just his girlfriend but also a disinterested group of journalists to practice the Faith properly). Seal seems to have been led around by the nose--and not even by a worthy person.
You're right that her tone should have been another red flag, and also the use of the word "stupid."
It was a fitness test from Klum, whether either of them realized it or not . . . and Seal failed miserably.
Over at HUS, commenter Jesus Mahoney made the point that the problem with passing a fitness test is that there is no real prize. Do you really want to be with a woman who would treat you that way? And in this specific case, with a woman who would treat the father of her unborn baby that way?
What an incredible weapon a woman's beauty can be . . . :(
Lost,
I hate to say this, but you are so right...
Bellita just added credence to your point, actually.
It would appear that at least to me, and I am guessing to Bellita herself too, Mark Wahlberg is clearly alpha and Seal is beta (even if I hated to admit it to myself).
Because, (at least in my case) I reacted with awe to the one, and with hives to the other.
And yet, if you stood Mark Wahlberg next to Seal, Seal would probably lead the 'Prize hunk' contest, because despite Mark Wahlberg's equally impressive physique, I am pretty sure he is not as tall as Seal.
And Funny accuses me of being led by my natural instincts alone?!
Anyway, to summarise your words, Lost: Seal is just one big beta who fell for a beautiful woman.
And who should have read my post on appreciating female beauty :-)
I think it IS wonderful that a man CHOOSES to raise another man's child. But this poor man was not 'alpha' enough at the times it mattered - right at the start of their relationship and at least one other time before committing to her.
He had not danced the dance of love the right way. Because as Bellita said, he had been led around the dance floor by his dance partner instead of the other way round.
I don't kid you when I say that his response to "No, it's not yours, stupid" was, and I quote him from the interview, "Wow, this beautiful, pregnant woman wants to be with me . She wants me to be the father of her child. What an honour she bestowed on me."
Seal was grateful for the privilege of raising another man's child, it seems. Because it meant he gets to be with this beautiful woman.
I kid you not.
I do not pretend to know her personality, but in this present situation, she is appearing 'cold and hard' by her silence and he is appearing 'warm and gushy' by his behaviour.
That role reversal thing I mentioned was not just a figment of my imagination then.
@ Bellita,
"It just occurred to me that there is quite a contrast between your post about Mark Wahlberg and this post about Seal!"
Touché.
It has not escaped my notice either.
Wow.
I am almost certain that you and I are not just 'outliers'...
What would be really cool is to get another woman to chime in and declare that she would still pick Seal over Mark Wahlberg anyday, despite all she knows about both of them so far...
And be able to say that HONESTLY.
I am willing to bet there will be no takers..
But as usual, I could be wrong...
I must add, though, (after all I have said :-) that I DO in fact admire what Seal is doing, in a way. I am Catholic. I hate divorce. So I hope Heidi Klum can be won over by Seal.
Even better, I really hope she will actively show some zeal for her own marriage. I just fear that she won't, unless he stops his beta behaviour.
The world does not need another four kids from a broken home. Enough of them around already.
Why would you hate to admit that i'm right?
Seal the beta came into Heidi's life at the right moment, single and pregnant she was looking for a provider, which Seal was more than happy to oblige.
Now that the provider role has been mostly fulfilled, Heidi looks to appease her insatiable hunger for Alpha cock, while keeping the provider qualities that Seal provides - but only, now, from a distance - just the way she wants it. Thank you Feminism, she can have her cake and eat it too!
Crass, but oh so true
Lost,
"Crass, but oh so true"
This is why I hate to admit that you are right.
If your theory is right, and I have this sinking feeling that it is, 'crass' would be a good way to describe this phenomenon. Sadly it is a common story...
On some level, I am still hoping we are all wrong, though.
That we wake up in 2 weeks and Heidi Klum is back...where she belongs...in Seal's arms...
But somehow, I won't hold my breath, yet.
I may not respect Seal much, but I am still rooting for him somehow...
But I guess he doesn't need some distant girl's 'pity' because she looks at him and sees a 'puppy dog'.
I guess like any red-blooded male, he wants his own wife to look at him and see a lion or a tiger :-(
And for poor Seal, that ain't happening right now...
By the way, there are rumours abound that she is much richer than him, at least nowadays (not sure about when they first met) and this may be the reason for his 'temper tantrums'.
So, certainly, he may not be as great a provider now...so perhaps to her, now's a great time to ditch him?...and if this is the case, this would make her even more...
you guessed it...crass.
God I hope I am wrong!
@Lost: I don't think this has anything to do with feminism. She's attractive, knows it, and more importantly knows how to exploit it.
@Spacetraveller
I don't kid you when I say that his response to "No, it's not yours, stupid" was, and I quote him from the interview, "Wow, this beautiful, pregnant woman wants to be with me. She wants me to be the father of her child. What an honour she bestowed on me."
And this is proof that men can have "hamsters," too.
The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am that Seal did not seem to consider the rights of Leni's biological father seven years ago. In a way, this is "karma." At the very least, he should have seen it coming.
I also finally bit the bullet and read Entertainment news coverage about this. Apparently, Heidi has said that Seal parties too much and she is just fed up. It's like karma, too, only less mystical . . . Isn't it true that what we love most about someone before the marriage is often what drives us craziest during the marriage? There's really bad judgment on both their parts.
I don't like divorce any more than you do, especially when there are children involved, but what a messed up pair of parents their four children have!
Anonymous
Sadly the emasculation of men has everything to do with feminism.
Women's sense of entitlement has everything to do with feminism.
Don't get me wrong, feminism had its time and place, now it's just overboard.
But i will give you that Heidi does know what she is doing, consciously or not. She is putting herself in the best position possible for herself.
ST
In this day and age, this phenomenon is a common story, we men have been drilled since our early year to be unconditionally overly nice and respectful to women even if we get no mutual reciprocation. It's un-natural for anyone to be demanded that, man or woman. In turn women are told that they deserve the world, anything they want, at minimal effort and devoid of consequence.
This perpetuates this phenomenon.
There are deep seeded roots in the saying "Nice guys finish last."
And Seal is learning this lesson
God knows you are so right
It never ceases to amaze me how desperately people will try to find a reason why it's All The Woman's Fault.
The French have a witty phrase for this, but I can't spell it.
@ Charming Disarray,
"It never ceases to amaze me how desperately people will try to find a reason why it's All The Woman's Fault."
Meaning?
Can't you see that Seal's weakness is being called into question here?
Klum took full advantage of his lack of leadership.
Neither of them comes out smelling of roses here...
The implication is that he should have never been with her in the first place, and what did he think would happen for falling for such an evil woman?
If he hadn't been weak, everyone agrees he would have stayed completely away, right? I just find it interesting that everyone agreed they had no idea what the facts were, then immediately assumed as a given that it's her selfishness that's at the cause of it in one or another.
I also think it's sad and very telling that Seal is being mocked for adopting Heidi's baby, and for being "mushy" about the breakup of his marriage. There's nothing unmanly about either of those things. All this Beta and Alpha nonsense seriously gets into peoples' heads and makes them incapable of seeing normal human behavior.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but since I started blogging I've just come across so much more negativity and acrimony in male-female dynamics than I've seen anywhere else...and I had seen plenty before. It's really starting to get to me.
I, too, think their breakup is very sad. They seemed genuinely in love. And obviously it was far from ideal that there was another man's baby involved in the beginning, but I was impressed that Seal had taken on such a caring and protective role towards a child who wasn't his in order to have a solid family unit with the woman he loved. These are the kinds of things we should be praising men for--being heroic and going that extra mile they don't need to go, even in less than ideal circumstances. I think the people who start the mockery of this kind of thing are men who know they could never be so selfish, and so as a defense mechanism they try to make it look like they're the strong ones by not be willing to sacrifice for others. And then women start to buy into this and see "nice" behavior from men as weak, and then the complaining guys start to complain that nice guys finish last and all women like jerks! What a mess. Anyway, Brad Pitt has done the same thing, so is he considered Beta as well? Who are these Alphas, anyway? I don't think I've ever seen one.
@ Chharming Disarray,
You make good points. I shall try to address them as accurately as I can.
Let me start with Brad Pitt. He is NOT in the same category as Seal. When he met Jolie, she already had her children...he took on a ready-made family, so to speak.
Seal took on a woman who seems to have been rather quick in making the transition from one man to another.
How do I know this?
The timing of the beginning of her relationship with Seal and her pregnancy. She was effectively 'overlapping'.
Major Red Flag! In this regard, I can't help but agree totally with Bellita.
Brad Pitt, in my eyes is not a quality man. He was unfaithful to his wedded wife, Jennifer. By inference, I don't see Jolie as a quality woman. I don't care how many children from around the world she has adopted...
I digress. Sorry, I shall stay on topic from now on.
You are right in that no-one but Seal and Heidi know the facts of their own relationship. We are drawing lessons from what we can see, that's all.
In any case what a great thing hindsight is? We have the benefit of the 'retrospectoscope' here. They didn't, 8 years ago.
Negativity is a function of feeling the sentiment of helplessness. Once you get over that hump, everything is plainsailing from there.
The point about alpha and beta is that it is real. Make no mistake about that.
If a woman is single and claims she has never met an alpha man, I would say 'there's your answer'.
A woman knows when she has met her 'alpha', whatever alpha means to her. It does not have to be physical. I have said before, Tim Tebow is an alpha. And he ain't no bad boy.
What has come to light in this thread is that Seal never got what I would call 'deference' from Heidi because perhaps she never got the chance to see him as worthy of it. Again, Bellita to the rescue: her point about 'fitness tests' answers this question for you. It is not always a conscious thing, but make no mistake: it exists. And it can explain a lot.
Seal could have walked away from this (albeit beautiful) woman who displayed a red flag. That would have been one option. The other would have been to show manly leadership.
We think the problem is that he failed in this task. Which is why he is paying the price now.
No-one is saying Heidi is an evil woman. But we all recognise that she is savvy. More so than Seal.
I have already stated that I do think Seal was exceptional in wanting to raise another man's kid. As it happens, he is in fact raising two kids who are not biologically his.
I like that. I have said that.
I am also sad that their marriage is breaking up. Like you, I don't find divorce funny.
And I actually think he is cool for being so 'nice'.
But I can see that it is not helping him.
For the reasons listed above.
A woman will always find an excuse to rationalise away bad behaviour in a man she once saw as 'alpha'. But if she never saw him as 'alpha' in the first place, even 'nice' won't help him.
She might take what she can get out of him, but deep down, she is reacting to him with hives.
A man really ought to know that he is her Top Man for all the right reasons before he commits. Seal did not do this, and Heidi being a svvy woman, may have simply taken her chance.
Just speculating.
It is precisely because I don't know the answers that I ask the questions.
good reply ST
Charming:
None of this is abnormal behavior, its all very normal human behavior and yes Alpha/Beta psychology concepts DO exist.
But i think you are missing the point of the article.
Here's a little run down of Alpha and Beta
Alpha traits, or strong character traits is what makes a make stand up for himself, his beliefs and his family(which ever definition of family you want to use.) Yes is makes the man seem more like an asshole to people outside his circle. Its the assertiveness in which he leads and its what makes him have strong conviction about various topics he finds important in life. Its what makes a man selflessly expose himself to physical harm for his family. its what builds ATTRACTION with the opposite sex.
Beta traits is what leads a man to selflessly provide for his family, these are the decisions he makes with more of an emotional view, its what makes him care how YOU feel over how it makes HIM feel, it is the polar opposite of Alpha. its the reluctance to lead and make decisions that will negatively effect others. Its how a man can unconditionally love his family, disregarding what awful things they have done in the past. Beta traits build RAPPORT with the opposite sex.
Both Alpha and Beta traits have the strengths and weaknesses, and ONE must find the proper BALANCE of both traits in their lives based on mentors' teachings and personal experience.
the complete balance with ATTRACT and mate and KEEP a mate. You lose that attraction in a relationship and its over.
This is what happened with Seal, the man is imbalanced towards the Beta spectrum, given Heidi period in her life he had more of the traits she was looking for, so for her it was a no brainer for her. As time goes on and familiarity breeds, men have a tendency to let go of Alpha traits all together. the boosts up Beta traits to the max and the relationship loses its attraction.
No one is blaming Heidi for being a victim of natures psychology game. She used the best hand she could, and used her trump card.
as the years went, because of Seal's betaness and the different stage she is in her life, she lost that fire, that attraction.
Seal is also a victim of nature's sick little game. the thing is he has the possibility to not even be in this situation at all if he had the right balance of character.
unfortunately what you saying we should praise men as "heroic" for raising another man's child is not the type of heroism that builds an attraction towards you, but rather build rapport towards you. and theres a reason. what DOES build attraction is a man risking his life running inside a fiery building to save a child! and thats another type of heroism. 2 different types of heroism that builds 2 different types of psychological views towards you.
anyways i'm rambling on so....
@Charming
If he hadn't been weak, everyone agrees he would have stayed completely away, right?
Not weak, just kind of dumb. :P
I also think it's sad and very telling that Seal is being mocked for adopting Heidi's baby, and for being "mushy" about the breakup of his marriage.
I'm not "mocking" him and don't really care how he is reacting to the breakup, but I do have very strong feelings about the circumstances of the adoption. It's one thing for a man to adopt a widow's child when he marries her, but this is hardly what happened here.
If I remember the timeline correctly, Heidi's divorce from her first husband hadn't even been finalized when she started dating her daughter's father. And then she left him to be with another man while still pregnant. (Doesn't anyone feel for Leni's dad?) In a nutshell, Heidi's dating record was pretty bad. Seal's beautiful act of love wasn't worthy of her.
I was impressed that Seal had taken on such a caring and protective role towards a child who wasn't his in order to have a solid family unit with the woman he loved. These are the kinds of things we should be praising men for . . .
Again, look at the circumstances. Heidi would probably have had her way anyway, being rich and powerful enough, but there is a sense in which Seal enabled her to screw Leni's father over. Seal was not technically a homewrecker, but "Father" was not yet his role to play. It's as if a man used some twist in the legal system to take his newborn child away from the biological mother, to be raised by the hot new wife he considered a better prospect. How could the new wife think he would not be so callous with her someday?
I do like Seal as a person and think he's a lovely father, but his marriage to Heidi was always a house built on sand.
Bellita
Has anyone actually looked up anything about Leni's father? He's basically a criminal. He's been involved in multiple and repeated fraud charges and in fact fled his native country, Italy, in order to avoid being convicted. He also cheated on Heidi with not one but two different women while she was pregnant, even though initially they were going to raise the baby together.
Puts a different spin on things, doesn't it? It's easier to assume that Heidi was just fickle rather than seeking to protect herself and her child from a man who is probably dangerous and certainly isn't husband or father material.
ST: I understand what you're saying. That's also an interesting perspective on Brad Pitt. I'm not a huge fan of his either, but I have a memory of him pre-Aniston pre-Jolie saying in an interview that he wanted seven kids, and I always thought that was a bit endearing. I honestly don't see the difference between what he did and what Seal did, though. You say it's a question of timing, but I think Jolie moved on pretty fast from her first husband after adopting her first child.
Lost: "unfortunately what you saying we should praise men as "heroic" for raising another man's child is not the type of heroism that builds an attraction towards you, but rather build rapport towards you. and theres a reason. what DOES build attraction is a man risking his life running inside a fiery building to save a child! and thats another type of heroism. 2 different types of heroism that builds 2 different types of psychological views towards you."
This is an enlightening take on the differences between the two. I still find the terms artificial and arbitrary, but until now I thought that everything "beta" was considered bad. This makes more sense.
Bellita: But Leni's father was a manipulative criminal. Honestly, look up some information about him. I just don't see him as the victim here. I can easily imagine that Heidi may have felt herself in a vulnerable, or possibly even an emergency situation, which most likely contributed to how quickly she moved on with Seal. She needed someone to protect her. Men love to play the hero, especially to beautiful, powerful women. You could say that that's why the relationship didn't last, since it began in chaotic circumstances, but that's a very different explanation than the one that's being given here.
I also read that Seal was spending a lot of time away from home touring. If it's just a case of two people with two very busy careers who grew apart and then gave up easily, how does that fit in with what's being said about Heidi losing interest because of Seal's Betaness?
It is harder for a man to get custody away from the mother, certainly. I'm not sure that's a bad thing, especially since there was no marriage. As the saying goes, if he liked it he should have put on a ring on it. However, I believe men can custody if the mother is deemed unfit, which I'm sure does happen. It seems pretty clear that Leni's father was unfit as a father. This is done for the protection of the child and not out of a power trip on the part of women.
@Charmed
It's easier to assume that Heidi was just fickle rather than seeking to protect herself and her child from a man who is probably dangerous and certainly isn't husband or father material.
That totally explains why she was with him for nearly a year. And there was the singer from the Red Hot Chili Peppers before him, too. And before him, Hugh Grant.
I know more about European celebrity gossip than I care to admit, so I agree with you that Leni's father probably doesn't care about his daughter. Asking whether anyone "felt for" him was my (clumsy) way of reminding people that sometimes the disenfranchised father does count.
But the unfitness of the biological father doesn't at all make a woman like Heidi any more of a good bet for marriage. Having a child with a hot "bad boy" and then expecting the "good guy" to take care of him is typical single mother entitlement. In another social class, she'd be considered trash.
She needed someone to protect her.
Translation: She needed someone to rescue her from her mistakes. Notice that because she got one man "to make an honest woman out of her," she didn't have to live with the consequences of her actions?
how does that fit in with what's being said about Heidi losing interest because of Seal's Betaness?
I actually don't care how "Alpha" or "Beta" Seal is. I don't even like writing those terms without putting quotation marks around them, and this is the first time I've used them in this thread. My own conclusion was that Seal should have seen this coming because Heidi was a bad bet from the start.
(For what it's worth, the last news report I read cited Seal's "partying" as the cause of the breakup. But to me, this is beside the point because I think their union was doomed from the beginning because of Heidi's character.)
It seems pretty clear that Leni's father was unfit as a father.
And it's becoming clearer that Leni's mother is unfit as a mother, too.
@ Charming Disarray,
"Puts a different spin on things, doesn't it?"
'Fraid not. You just helped to make Lost's point.
So Heidi had got involved with the wrong kind of man and figured out that he wasn't going to stick around.
Enter Seal the beta...
Look, I get your point.
Seal was a great guy for taking on kids which were not his own. That's precisely why he doesn't deserve the treatment he is getting now.
"But Leni's father was a manipulative criminal. Honestly, look up some information about him. I just don't see him as the victim here."
You are right, from what you say, Leni's dad is not the victim here.
Again you help our argument: SEAL is the victim. Only problem is, he helped make himself the victim.
"I also read that Seal was spending a lot of time away from home touring. If it's just a case of two people with two very busy careers who grew apart and then gave up easily, how does that fit in with what's being said about Heidi losing interest because of Seal's Betaness?"
In this day and age, almost all couples have to endure one or other being away from home a lot.
For a woman looking to extricate from a guy she doesn't look up to, it can be the perfect excuse, no?
As indeed can any situation. She can spin it any way she likes.
It's called the 'rationalisation hamster'. Commonly a feminine thing, apparently beta men also have this, as Bell noted.
She also said he parties too much, as Bell reported.
Excuse me? Since when was that a reason to divorce someone?
Are you catching our drift?
If Heidi was in love with Seal, this is what she would say about his being on tour so much:
"He is such a hard worker...he is doing his best to provide for me and our children."
"You say it's a question of timing, but I think Jolie moved on pretty fast from her first husband after adopting her first child."
Again, more evidence she ain't quality.
"Men love to play the hero, especially to beautiful, powerful women. You could say that that's why the relationship didn't last, since it began in chaotic circumstances, but that's a very different explanation than the one that's being given here."
No, it's not a different explanation.
THIS man played the hero to this unworthy woman at a time she needed a hero.
And now look what happened?
8 years later, he is parading himself on TV talk shows proclaiming her a 'wonderful and beautiful woman' whilst she makes up silly excuses to justify her departure.
And the rest of us shake our heads in disbelief at his 'blindness'.
Charming Disarray,
Can you not spot a serious problem here? Can't you see that if Seal does not get Heidi back he is simply going to join the ranks of men who are poisoned against women?
Girlfriend, wake up and smell the coffee!
It's women like Heidi who are ruining things for you (not you specifically, this is an abstract term!) and other women like you in your quest for a meaningful relationship with a good man.
To all intents and purposes, Seal performed his end of the 'social contract'. He was there for her when she needed a protector. He did it wrong, but that's kind of a moot point right now. The point is, Heidi has not done her part for him. She is discarding him at a time HE needs HER.
Don't lament Heidi Klum.
She may not be worth it.
I shall leave Heidi Klum and her ilk to carry on as they please. Because they are not adding any value to the lives of younger people than them. They are not my idea of 'a good example'.
I will not go out of my way to shame them, but I SHALL give my honest opinion about their behaviour if I believe I have enough information to do so.
In this case, I feel enough information has been gathered to come to some sort of conclusion.
"Translation: She needed someone to rescue her from her mistakes. Notice that because she got one man "to make an honest woman out of her," she didn't have to live with the consequences of her actions? "
So she's supposed to be punished and regarded as trash for making mistakes, whereas we're supposed to pity Leni's father because he's NOT trash, just a misunderstood Italian criminal.
It's is clear that her choice of men hasn't been the best. I don't see how that dooms her to a life of not deserving to be with a good man. I think she dealt with the consequences of her actions in the very best way possible, which was to find someone to build a stable family with and a loving marriage. That's how to fix your mistakes. Not being sent to a home for fallen women.
I vehemently disagree that she is just as unfit as a parent as Leni's father. That is holding her to a much higher standard than you're holding him to, because even after fathering a child he continued to be a womanizer, basic crook, and absentee father. She became a wife and a mother to three more children who it's blatantly obvious that she cares for and loves. Calling her trash and implying that she should spend the rest of her life shunned by good men is just wrong. People are allowed to move on from their bad choices, even women.
Seal made a choice to be with her. He knew exactly what he was taking on, and he did it willingly. If things didn't work out, that doesn't make his original impulse wrong, nor is it a foregone conclusion that it's her fault the marriage broke up.
ST, on what are you basing your claim that it's Heidi who's walking away from the marriage? How do you know it's not Seal who decided to end it?
If you can show that she wanted the divorce and not him, I'll consider your points. I'm not trying to be difficult but everything I read said that the decision was mutual. But unless we establish that, any discussion based on the idea that she's divorcing him and not vice versa is pointless.
"For what it's worth, the last news report I read cited Seal's "partying" as the cause of the breakup. But to me, this is beside the point because I think their union was doomed from the beginning because of Heidi's character."
So unless a woman is a perfect angel, a man's actions have no relevance, no matter how objectionable? And even if you happen to think he shouldn't have married her, he did. Once that choice was made there was a commitment there, which makes his actions accountable as well as hers in the context of the marriage.
CD,
Your question astounds me.
I was kinda hoping it was a rhetorical question, but I am getting this sinking feeling that in fact, it wasn't.
You really want an answer to this question?
A man goes on TV to say how he loves his wife, how wonderful she is, how beautiful she is, how she's God's gift to him (he actually said this, I am NOT making this up), how she gave him 4little miracles (meaning their kids - let's not forget 2 of them are not even his), points to his wedding ring and says it's a sign of his love, commitment and respect and he can't bring himself to take it off...
Need I go on?
If Seal walked away from Heidi and not the other way round, he should win an Oscar, right now. No questions asked.
The whole 'mutual' thing is what couples in the media glare do. It's designed to allow the dumpee a modicum of dignity.
The rest of us are supposed to 'read between the lines'.
Other than the above 'evidence' I'm afraid I cannot produce any hard evidence. I would have had to be part of their household to accomplish the mission impossible you have assigned me.
:-)
Hope this helps.
"And even if you happen to think he shouldn't have married her, he did. Once that choice was made there was a commitment there, which makes his actions accountable as well as hers in the context of the marriage."
Ah, commitment...
One question, CD: Of the two, who do you think is showing more commitment to this marriage at this present time?
So she's supposed to be punished and regarded as trash for making mistakes, whereas we're supposed to pity Leni's father because he's NOT trash, just a misunderstood Italian criminal.
LOL! Calm down, tiger! ;) I already admit I was wrong to say that we should "feel for" Leni's father. (I'm just personally sick of biological fathers being so easy to cut out of the picture.) If it makes you feel any better, I consider Leni's dad a million times trashier than Heidi. Happy now?
It's is clear that her choice of men hasn't been the best. I don't see how that dooms her to a life of not deserving to be with a good man. I think she dealt with the consequences of her actions in the very best way possible, which was to find someone to build a stable family with and a loving marriage. That's how to fix your mistakes. Not being sent to a home for fallen women.
How can you write something like this when the reason we're even talking about Heidi is that she is divorcing a good man who clearly wants to stay married to her and traumatizing her children in the process?
The family is not stable. The marriage (at least on her end) is not loving. By filing for divorce, she annulling whatever "fixing" of her mistake there was.
I'm actually all for giving people a second chance, but Seal was her second chance. She's blowing it.
I vehemently disagree that she is just as unfit as a parent as Leni's father. That is holding her to a much higher standard than you're holding him to, because even after fathering a child he continued to be a womanizer, basic crook, and absentee father.
Not a higher standard. Just a different one.
Heidi has also gushed enthusiastically about how amazing Seal is, and was seen wearing her ring after the announcement of her split.
Everything else I found about them talked about Seal's temper and endless partying, and that was affecting the children. Why don't you tell me which of the two is showing more commitment to their family? Maybe, if she is the one walking away, she's doing it protect her children? Or is that just more evidence of what a screw-up she is for picking unworthy men?
I honestly don't understand why both you and Bellita are taking such a polarized view of the situation. I can say that from whatever pieces of information have filtered through the media, which can never be trusted anyway, it looks to me like there were problems and a lack of willingness on both sides to compromise. Seal because he kept up his crazy lifestyle without consideration towards his family, and Heidi because she got fed up enough to walk away. By the time a divorce happens, there is already a long history of problems. These things don't come out of nowhere. But I guess all of that is irrelevant because no matter what, it must be Heidi's fault because she's the woman and should have been perfect from the very beginning.
It's clear that they are both at fault and responsible. Why is that such a difficult pill to swallow?
Let me tell you something. I've never been divorced, obviously, but I was in a long term relationship during which me and my ex disagreed on certain things. We argued a lot. I mean a LOT. Obviously I thought I was right and he thought he was right, and I could say he was manipulative but you would probably dismiss that as bias on my part. Regardless, we broke up.
A year later he came back and said he was ALL WRONG. I had been right in the things we disagree on, and he wished he had realized it sooner. He gushed and went on at length about how he adored me etc. and wanted things to work out between us.
The thing was, it was too late. I hadn't wanted the breakup in the first place because I was absolutely committed to the relationship, but at some point he drove those feelings out of me by the problems he caused. Later on it might have looked like he was the loving, loyal one, and I was the cold-hearted one who had moved on, but the fact is that a woman can only sustain a disfunctional relationships for so long, and a man has a lot of power to kill her love for him. If only men realized this BEFORE they got to their gushy stages of wanting to reconcile....
And for what's worth, when I declined to get back together with my ex, I also spoke well of him. On the surface it would have looked obvious that we should be together. But I knew that he had driven something out of my heart that could never come back, and that was not my fault.
I didn't see this the first time . . .
So unless a woman is a perfect angel, a man's actions have no relevance, no matter how objectionable? And even if you happen to think he shouldn't have married her, he did. Once that choice was made there was a commitment there, which makes his actions accountable as well as hers in the context of the marriage.
Well, let's look at his actions, shall we?
Was it that he did too much touring? I call shennanigans! Heidi is away from home a lot, too, because of her modeling job and Project Runway hosting. And since when is a woman justified for divorcing the traditional family breadwinner for taking too many business trips? Are you going to call Seal to task for not being committed enough but give Heidi a free pass?
Or was it that he did too much partying? He's so freaking repentant these days that it seems that all she needed to do was threaten to leave him. He'll be a homebody for a year if she goes back to him now. I wouldn't have believed it, but the man was/is whipped.
"If it makes you feel any better, I consider Leni's dad a million times trashier than Heidi. Happy now?"
Ha ha. Yes, actually!
"How can you write something like this when the reason we're even talking about Heidi is that she is divorcing a good man who clearly wants to stay married to her and traumatizing her children in the process?"
Because firstly it's not clear that she's the one divorcing him, although I concede it's starting to look more that way because of the "she decided she's had enough" type comments. So let's just say she is. Secondly, she obviously wanted the marriage to work, but he (according to reports) was partying and having anger outburts. How long was she supposed to put up with that? How do we know how bad it was? Maybe it was more traumatizing to the children than the divorce will be. I don't believe in divorce, but I absolutely believe in separation if there's a question of one parent being volatile and negligent because those things do have a lasting effect. So how, assuming it's true, is he less to blame?
I mean, we don't know. Maybe those reports are exaggerated. But it's obvious that the divorce isn't happening for some shallow reason like either of them wanting to be with someone else.
So I would disagree that he's "clearly a good man." I'd like to believe he is, because there's plenty of evidence for it, but we don't really know. Or maybe he's a good man who's made some terrible mistakes. Like I said, this is sad all around and I wish they would work it out.
And then I hate myself for spending my Sunday afternoon writing about people who are total strangers to me. Not that it's not a fascinating topic. :)
I honestly don't understand why both you and Bellita are taking such a polarized view of the situation.
I'll tell you why. I'm very against single motherhood and the general idea that children can be raised normally without fathers in the picture or in broken homes.
Show me a single mother who is not in a committed relationship with her child's father and I will show you a walking red flag for marriage. (The only thing that shows poorer impulse control is a tattoo.) That Heidi found a man who "made an honest woman out of her" fixed the problem only as long as she was willing to remain married to him.
Can people repent and "sin no more"? Of course they can! Your case that Heidi is one of them hinges on the quality of the next man she enters into a sexual relationship with.
"Was it that he did too much touring? I call shennanigans! Heidi is away from home a lot, too, because of her modeling job and Project Runway hosting. And since when is a woman justified for divorcing the traditional family breadwinner for taking too many business trips? Are you going to call Seal to task for not being committed enough but give Heidi a free pass?"
I don't give her a free pass at all. In fact my initial thought was that they're relationship collapsed because they let other things take over and then didn't want to fix it. My point all along has been that there are a lot of factors at play here. I don't have any trouble believing that she let her career take over at the expense of her family, and that's certainly problematic.
"Or was it that he did too much partying? He's so freaking repentant these days that it seems that all she needed to do was threaten to leave him. He'll be a homebody for a year if she goes back to him now. I wouldn't have believed it, but the man was/is whipped."
Now, see? He's whipped because he's committed to the marriage? Because he's horrified that his wife might leave him? Should he just man up and act like he doesn't care?
If she did go back to him, and they fixed the problems of him partying or whatever, it seems to me that there's a very high change that she'll be harboring resentment that she had to actually initiate a divorce in order to get him to do what he should have been doing in the first place. He's probably already lost her respect and maybe that's why she considers the marriage a lot cause.
But on the other hand if she let her career take over as stated, that's a huge factor as well. I am reluctant to put all the blame on one side. That's all.
I am reluctant to put all the blame on one side. That's all.
To be perfectly honest, Charmed, I was mostly being a devil's advocate with you. If you asked me who was more at fault in their marriage, I wouldn't admit that I think it takes two to tango.
My dog in this race was always that Heidi was a bad bet for marriage from the beginning, because of her circumstances. She got one free pass because she is a woman and we don't like separating infants from their mothers, and a second one when she was able to acquire a father for the child after all. (And before Leni's birth, too! What quick work!) But now she is separating four children from their father. Passes revoked!
Let the red flag fly once more!
*** That confusing sentence should read: "I WOULD admit that it takes two to tango."
*facepalm!
@ CD,
I sympathise with your personal story. It's not easy, relationships, huh?
Honestly, I am saddened to hear your story. I hope you find happiness one day soon, if you haven't already. I just got back from Mass - if I had known this before, I would have said one for you. But hey, there's always next week :-)
"I honestly don't understand why both you and Bellita are taking such a polarized view of the situation."
I cannot speak for Bellita. Here is my own position on this: I already hear about the 'wrongs' of men on an almost daily basis. Like I said in a previous post, feminism, or if you like, our modern world has sold women on the sins of men.
It has become quite the fashion.
Don't get me wrong. Many deserve their bad reputation.
What's more, women are more vocal. My own experiences led me to investigate on my own.
Then I began to see that sometimes, what appears to be cast in stone is anything but...
Notice I am not against all women, or even most women.
I am just not liking the few who are doing it wrong and ruining it for the majority.
I have a similar disdain for bad men.
But I reserve judgment until I am sure what my definition of 'bad' is in a man.
Because not being a man myself, I am aware of the need to educate myself properly on them.
Being a woman, I already know what a woman is capable of, good or bad.
"It's clear that they are both at fault and responsible. Why is that such a difficult pill to swallow?"
We finally agree. They are both at fault. For different reasons. Him for being weak, her for being an ungrateful woman.
"Heidi has also gushed enthusiastically about how amazing Seal is, and was seen wearing her ring after the announcement of her split."
Yes, she has not yet taken off her ring. There has to be a silver lining somewhere.
Since the announcement of the split, she has kept silent except for the usual pr machine declaring the need for respect for their privacy and such.
An intervview which she did before the split was accidentally released after the split. So of course she was gushing then...
If Seal was violent, then she would be right to divorce him. No-one disagrees.
But, as a woman, I would say again: beware that 'hamster'. A woman can spin it any way she wants, whether it is true or not. And men are wising up to this.
At first I didn't believe them.
And then I came across some documentation about the Violence Against Women Act and all the false accustions they are dealing with.
When even ONE woman behaves in a dishonourable manner to win a battle against a man, ALL women lose the war.
So don't blame me for taking a polarised view.
Blame the enemy within.
Our very own sisters (some of them).
CD,
"He's probably already lost her respect and maybe that's why she considers the marriage a lot cause."
We have been saying for yonks now, he lost her respect from Day 1 when he failed her 'fitness test'.
That's why they are in a pickle now. The way forward for them both?
He should indeed do this:
"Should he just man up and act like he doesn't care?"
Thanks for suggesting it! Seal would do well to take this course of action. It's part of the Tango dance thing. He has done the beta part. Enough already! It's what got him into trouble in the first place.
Now let her do some of the work. She may regain some respect for him.
As will the rest of us.
He doesn't have to turn into some unrecognisable 'badass'.
Just show a bit of manly pride.
Even women have to do this sometimes.
CD, it's all about the balance.
Seal is too much beta and not enough alpha at times when it matters.
That's his problem.
But it's not his fault - like the rest of us, he got an overdose of Blue Pill advice!
CD,
By the way, I had meant to add,
"And for what's worth, when I declined to get back together with my ex, I also spoke well of him."
You are a classy lady. This is not exactly easy to do in the context of a breakup.
You go onto my list of 'admirable women', for what it's worth.
"But I knew that he had driven something out of my heart that could never come back, and that was not my fault."
I have said this before: when it's over for a woman, it really is over.
But you did not marry your man.
Heidi did.
I fear Seal is heading for the divorce courts whatever he does. Even a bit of 'alpha' behaviour now may not help. Because if Heidi has made up her mind, that's it.
Ultimately, the woman decides...in a lot of cases...
@Spacetraveller
Being a woman, I already know what a woman is capable of, good or bad.
I really like this point you made. It's true for me as well.
It's not that I don't see the sins of men, but that I can write with more authority about the sins of women, being a woman myself.
@ Bellita,
It's common sense, no?
The funny thing is, the more I learn about male behaviour, the more I learn about female behaviour.
Isn't that strange?
"Can people repent and "sin no more"? Of course they can! Your case that Heidi is one of them hinges on the quality of the next man she enters into a sexual relationship with."
You are being too lenient on Heidi: you are lowering the bar for her.
The best way she can 'repent and sin no more' is to take some time out, reflect and go back to Seal, the man who gave her a second chance and rescued her from herself.
Anything less would be a travesty.
@ CD,
"If she did go back to him, and they fixed the problems of him partying or whatever, it seems to me that there's a very high change that she'll be harboring resentment that she had to actually initiate a divorce in order to get him to do what he should have been doing in the first place."
I wholeheartedly agree! Again, I point out that this is what Bell, Lost and I are saying too. Except you are using plain English and we sprinkle our words with 'Game speak'.
The operative words here are 'get him to do'.
This is precisely why if they get back together as things are (with him effectively begging and then she grudgingly acquiesces), she WILL feel resentment!
Why?
Because he would have failed yet another fitness test!
Because in her mind, she would be thinking: I threatened to leave, he grovelled...can my husband EVER be a real MAN?
Of course she will lose respect AGAIN.
But watch this:
If he remains strong, carries on with his life regardless, treats her with the usual cordialness but refuses to bow down to her like he is doing now...AND other men shun Heidi Klum as she begins her hunt for Alpha (insert word Lost used), what do you think will happen?
She will begin to see Seal as 'special'. He will suddenly become this knight in shining armour in her eyes. She will see him as she should have seen him at the beginning of their relationship - a king.
Under these circumstances, she will be the one to go begging...
And in these circumstances, their marriage WILL last forever.
Because Heidi will be the woman in the relationship and Seal would (finally) be the man.
And Heidi would be happier to be the woman. Because she would be finally given the chance to express her feminine self. So far, she has not been made to feel feminine by Seal. Because he has taken on that role for himself.
Because she has been the one leading him around by his nose.
Translation of all of the above into 'manspeak': He turned 'alpha' and she got the 'tingle' back.
;-)
I have said it to you before: it's a question of terminology.
You are saying what we are saying, but in more feminine language.
In this day and age, I would urge you to learn the other language too. You don't have to speak it all of the time. (Some of it is quite crude and would be unpalatable to you). But at least learn the basics. Most illuminating, it is!
It's a shame that Heidi's beauty , by giving her so much power and entitlement, eventually worked against her by turning her into the 'man' in her relationship with Seal.
Bellita nailed it when she said: "What an incredible weapon a woman's beauty can be."
:-)
It is. We are beautiful creatures.
But let's use our beauty wisely, shall we?
Otherwise it will work against us.
In any case, it is ephemeral.
@Spacetraveller
You are being too lenient on Heidi: you are lowering the bar for her.
You are right, of course. Mea culpa! ;)
"You are a classy lady. This is not exactly easy to do in the context of a breakup.
You go onto my list of 'admirable women', for what it's worth."
Oh dear. You give me too much credit. During the breakup process I was still in denial about a lot of things, but later on became VERY angry at him. I went from desperately wanting to be with him to wishing him well to thinking he was the worst man on earth. Weird, huh?
"And Heidi would be happier to be the woman. Because she would be finally given the chance to express her feminine self. So far, she has not been made to feel feminine by Seal. Because he has taken on that role for himself.
Because she has been the one leading him around by his nose."
I suppose we do agree, ultimately. Men who are too soft do put a burden on women. We end up feeling conflicted and guilty about things we don't want to have to worry about.
If, however, Heidi does move on right away, I'm going to assume that she used Seal's partying as an excuse to get rid of him because she was tired of him. So maybe I'm less lenient than Bellita, too. :)
Soo...Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphreys, anyone?
@ CD,
"During the breakup process I was still in denial about a lot of things, but later on became VERY angry at him. I went from desperately wanting to be with him to wishing him well to thinking he was the worst man on earth. Weird, huh?"
No. Perfectly normal. Don't beat yourself up about it.
"Soo...Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphreys, anyone?"
See one of my responses to Funny under 'The epitome of inner Game'.
Please don't make me go back there again. It was bad enough the first time. ;-)
Re: Kim Kardashian and Kris Humphreys
I have even stronger words for those two! Can this thread handle any more? ;)
Honestly, Bell,
Do we really need more examples of vacuous women like Kim K?
In many ways, Kim K is much worse than Heidi Klum in this regard.
At least Klum stuck around for 7 years...
Imagine finding out your wife is divorcing you from the Entertainment News...
Not cool...
And yes, I know men do this too, breaking up with unsuspecting girlfriends or wives by text, email, post-it notes...
Not cool either.
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