Wednesday, August 29, 2012

Fix the nose...


Around the time of Mark Zuckerberg's wedding, I was interested to read other people's take on a billionaire's decision to live a simple, non-extravagant life.

Living the simple life appeals to me more and more. Is this a side effect of ageing?
:-)
It is not the poverty per se that attracts me (although I guess this is precisely the more noble of the options I present to you), but rather the simplicity.

Why have two cars where a bike will do?
Why join a gym where a run around in the local park will do?
Why buy a TV where your laptop could do the job?

All the above questions have ready-made anawers, of course.

To the first, a mother of three children under 7 might say, 'Try trasnporting babies across town by bike everyday and see how that works out for you'.

To the second, a bodybuilder might reply, 'Running around a park does not fulfil my needs of building muscle'.

To the third, a student might retort, 'The purpose of TV-viewing is as much 'social' in a shared household as 'functional'. A laptop is great if I am alone. But I prefer to watch the football game with others as a shared experience.'

All fair points, all good arguments.

A throwback to the time in my life when I almost took seriously my intention of religious life is that I have considered purposely, the option of living in poverty (as in 'poverty, obedience, chastity', the hallmarks of religious life).

It is one thing to see poverty as a 'plus' in one's life when one is poor or close to being poor as a result of an unpleasant event in one's life, eg. the loss of a job, or an illness requiring a huge financial payout.

It is entirely another to be superatively rich and just not see the need to 'live it big'.

It is with this thought in mind that I was and still am fascinated by the Zuckerbergs and people like them who simply 'go against the flow'.

However, this post is not really about finances... :-)

My fascination with Mark and Priscilla Zuckerberg led me to read up about their low-budget wedding and honeymoon.
One of the articles I read included a discussion about what constitutes a suitable bride for a worthy man.

It is with this in mind that this comment (by a man) jumped right at me:

And I paraphrase:


"Nice girl, clearly intelligent and all. Clearly has demonstrated loyalty to Mark in that she has stayed with him all these years, from well before he was rich.

All she needs to do is fix the nose and she would be the perfect bride fit for a billionaire".

Or something to that effect.


I considered this comment on several levels.

On the one hand, it demonstrates just how much appearance is important to men. I get that.
This man was commiserating(?) with Mark Zuckerberg, believing him to have shortchanged himself by picking a woman who lacked a perfect nose.
Nevermind that it is possible that Mark Zuckerberg thinks his wife's nose is the best of all the female noses of the world.
Nevermind that the commenter himself acknowledges some of the obviously nice qualities about the new Mrs. Zuckerberg.
All that is not enough: the nose has to be fixed!

Is he an outlier? Or just someone who doesn't like the nose of the former Priscilla Chan?

On another level, (and I allude to this above), it is fairly noticeable (at least to me) that men tend to 'look out for each other' in a way that women simply don't, generally speaking.

I first noticed this in The Manosphere with the Obamas and men's reaction to a video that I dissected in this post. The overwhelming message regarding that video was, 'Obama is a loser beta for tolerating this nonsense from his woman!'
And my assertion that actually, he wasn't really being disrespected at all by his wife, and that besides, Obama seemed perfectly capable of managing his own wife and household... went down like a lead balloon :-)

But I digress.
I find there is something uniquely wholesome about this characteristic in men.
Some MGTOWspecifically state that their refusal to marry women is as a direct result of what they have seen happen to other men who have 'gone there' and who have subsequently 'crashed and burned'.
This may indeeed comprise a small proportion of MGTOW, but the lesson from that is clear enough nonetheless.
Brotherly love. Noble.
'Sisterly love' in this vein doesn't exist, except in very few female circles. I can confirm that :-)
Not to say I judge women for this. It just is this way.


The third level I view this comment is perhaps the most relevant to me. And to women in general, perhaps.

All women know on some level that their appearance is important to men. The multi-billion dollar beauty and cosmetics industry wouldn't exist if this were not the case.
Perhaps somewhat troubling is the trend towards beauty and cosmetic products aimed at men.
But I shan't go there. This post is already long enough :-)


A woman's life may not 'be over' when she stops attracting men, eg. once she 'hits the wall' as our Manosphere friends like to call it, but she sure feels her self-esteem take a dive until she finds a way to bring it back up.
This is particularly true for women who depend solely on their physical attractiveness to attract a man.

As I have learned from The Manosphere, a man is always going to be attrcated to a physically atrractive woman, whatever his particular criteria for attractiveness may be (and thank God, this is a fairly wide spectrum lol).

But most men will also say that of course that is not the end of the story. She must bring something else to the table other than the ability to pass 'the boner test'.

Understood. Loud and clear.

But what happens if the woman is stuck on 'I must make myself more beautiful' ?

I must 'fix the nose'.
I must 'get that perfect chest'.
I must 'have the perfect hair'.
I must have the perfect body'.
To the exclusion of everything else in my life.

This is what happens.

I wonder: did one man in this woman's past say to her...
'Fix the backside'...
Or did she tell herself that...

And many years later, she is still fixing it.

Vanity Wonder (great name, by the way!) says in the article that she wanted to look better than her fellow dancers. Sure. But is this the whole truth? Why do I have this niggling thought that this is just a smokescreen?

If it is the case as in the first scenario, should men be careful what they say to women about their appearance?
Or should it be a case of 'every (wo)man for him/herself'. Learn to deal with it'.
If it is the case as in the first scenario, this if anything provides good evidence that women will listen to what men say!
The reverse, in my humble opinion is less likely to be true.

So, gentlemen, we do listen to you. However much we protest to the contrary. So be careful what you say to us :-)


How best to advice young women on this issue?
On the one hand they should be made aware how important their physical appearance is to themselves (their self-esteem) and to men (if they want men in their lives).
On the other hand, where to draw the line?

I just wonder...





Anything to 'fix' here?


Um...







39 comments:

Anonymous said...

“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close, to drive life into a corner, and reduce it to its lowest terms, and, if it proved to be mean, why then to get the whole and genuine meanness of it, and publish its meanness to the world; or if it were sublime, to know it by experience, and be able to give a true account of it in my next excursion. ”

— Henry David Thoreau, Walden, "Where I Lived, and What I Lived For"

Surgery to 'fix' some real or imagined imperfection does not address the underlying psychological problem of a poor self image. TV and other media sources give us plenty of examples of people (mostly women) spending tens of thousands of dollars/pounds/euros chasing an unreal ideal. Your last included photo shows what happens when Michael Jackson-like obsession turns into Boris Karloff-like horror.

Where to draw the line? Clearly, a person maimed in a car accident deserves to have that damage repaired as best as is possible. Clearly, a woman recovering from a mastectomy deserves to have reconstructive surgery. A simple nose job to satisfy a personal wish isn't out of bounds either, but a breast augmentation procedure to get acting jobs? Or multiple surgeries to completely change one's appearance just because they can afford it, and want to do it?

Personally, I try to stay out of any such conversations as I'm not comfortable with judging other people by their looks, publicly. Sure, I have my opinions, everyone does, but I see no reason to share them. I knew a guy whose daughter had been teased at school about her ears sticking out, and he refused to pay several thousand dollars to have her ears 'pinned back'. I agreed with him, privately, but his father-in-law paid for the procedure completely. The girl was 10, and by the time she was 18, had had three other surgeries.

Again, my own personal opinion was not shared, but I also felt that any doctor performing plastic surgery on a growing girl, was a hack simply for the money it offered, and should have had his license yanked. In the end, your personal choices are yours, and mine are mine, as long as they do not infringe upon anyone else. I don't much care if women listen to men, but I'll at least say this much:

I'm far more interested in people that are comfortable in their own skin, than I am in someone who believes their world will be better if they can just fix that one thing....

The Navy Corpsman

Ceer said...

Plastic surgery is very tricky for women. Men judge women based on beauty all the time, just like women judge men based on social status. Sure, there are procedures to enhance a woman's looks. The clincher is that they almost always leave a noticeable difference that men can detect as "plastic".

As a man, I'd advise a woman to go see a plastic surgeon if she has had some injury, deformity, or something like a mole. Otherwise, don't worry so much about the shape of your features. A better place to spend your resources is controlling your overall weight and body tone. After that, focus on developing a good personality if you would like to keep a man for more than a one night stand.

Bob Wallace said...

A, yes, the Cat Lady. I've seen her on TV.

I believe in that cliche', "Enough is a good as a feast." Then I add what Warren Zevon said, if you can "Enjoy every sandwich." A sandwich is a feast if can completely enjoy it.

Money will take you only so far. That cry, "More money! There must be more money!" is a sad one.

just visiting said...

To borrow from Bellita,

I'd rather kiss the giraffe and have a positive outlook. There are certain things that I will do in consideration of a man. And certain things that I will not.

I look at it this way. If a man has to game a woman hard, she isn't relationship material. If a man can't handle a few physical imperfections, he isn't relationship material.

Spacetraveller said...

@ NC,

"Surgery to 'fix' some real or imagined imperfection does not address the underlying psychological problem of a poor self image."

True. It only covers up the cracks. But people like the cat lady and Vanity Wonder swear it helps them tremendously, and I have no doubt it does, at the beginning. But then like anything, moderation is key, and the problem is, they can't find the sweet spot where they have to stop...
And then they end up reversing the good that their plastic surgery has accorded them. This is why there is always some psychological counseling to accompany this type of surgery...
You are right, any doctor who does not ensure his patient see a shrink before this type of surgery is doing them a disservice!

@ Ceer,

Great advice for women!
I cringe at the thought of this article below, but it seems pertinent, so I link to it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2195451/Growing-number-young-women-seeking-vaginal-rejuvenation.html

Perhaps this is an example of surgery that is amongst the 'beyond the limit' list? Unless we are talking about an injury...

Funny, but this topic has recently cropped up on Danny's blog too. And it is highly enlightening his and his friends' reaction to 'female imperfection'.
I guess women don't have too much to worry about. As you say, Ceer, we just take care of the basics and the rest will take care of itself.

Bob,

I never heard of this woman until my 'research' for this post. She is rich, yes, and this may be a huge factor in her decision to go down this road. Some of us are thankful that we are not and will never be rich enough to indulge in this sort of thing :P

JV,
"I look at it this way. If a man has to game a woman hard, she isn't relationship material. If a man can't handle a few physical imperfections, he isn't relationship material."

Amen, JV.
Amen!

Leap of a Beta said...

I don't have time to read the five comments - quickly trying to catch up on my 'Sphere reading.

Anyways, a few points. One is your saying that men will defend men and women won't. This is untrue.

Men will defend individuals that have demonstrated that their defense is justified in that area. With increasing attachment in multiple areas, men will defend other men on areas other than specific subjects - but to begin with we will defend men ONLY on specific subjects and ONLY if the person has demonstrated worth of defense in that subject. Otherwise you will get an honest appraisal of that person - "Well, I like _____ of him, but dislike _____"

Most women defend women they don't know to the death, because they have enough distance for solipsism to kick in. So they act like they're defending themselves - because to them they are. Their emotions take them for a ride in the driver's seat and they have no experiences or memories of the individual to tie them down to reality. However, you give any amount of personal experience from one woman to the next, and you'll get back stabbing, mate competition of the dirtiest, filthiest kind that its disgusting. Both of these elements are a big basis for many a man's screening process - we don't want you to defend people you don't know and throw the ones you interact with day to day under the bus, because soon we'd be joining them under the bus.

As for your personal spending stuff.... I personally am an artist, but have gotten into style and public image a lot lately (if you've been reading my posts you know what I'm talking about). I think Zuckerberg simply doesn't feel comfortable with his money and his power, and it's leading to a gross mishandling of facebook. If he felt comfortable, he'd be able to pull off the lifestyle he's leading as a big middle finger to the world. But right now (whether it is or not) it READS as a timid hiding from his power and influence.

Read this post from Masculine Style for a great example of the kind of thing I'm talking about on being comfortable with demonstrating power as a man:
http://masculine-style.com/danger-and-play-part-2/

Grasshopper said...

“…If a man can’t handle a few physical imperfections he isn’t relationship material…” (JV quoting B)

The only men who pass on women with ‘a few physical imperfections’ are either top of the line alphas or perhaps very young and inexperienced men.

The former, if you ladies are honest, you do indeed consider ‘relationship material’. The latter – well I might agree with you.

The overwhelming majority of men pursue, date steadily, fall in love with and marry women with less than fashion model perfect looks. As ST noted, thank God men have a fairly wide spectrum of what they find attractive.

In fact most of even the lowly 3 and 4’s among women has her share of suitors. But these suitors are not alphas. And that is the rub I think for women.

It’s not that men in general are superficial with their selection criteria, it’s that alpha men are.

Grasshopper

Bellita said...

I've actually gone under the knife to improve my appearance several times, having been born with a congenital defect. And it has made me less likely to encourage other women to do the same when they were born with perfectly normal faces.

My plastic surgeon does a lot of pro bono work for Operation Smile, which fixes the craniofacial defects of poor children for free. I think there's a kind of gluttony in having been born with a normal face and body, but wanting more and more "beauty."

Anonymous said...

In high school, I had a crush on a pretty girl. Actually, she was stunningly beautiful, a 9+. Part of her beauty was a boney bump in her nose.

Her response to my poorly-executed interest was LJBF. I was a beta-orbiter for her throughout high school.

After graduation, I lost track of her. Zero contact.

In college a few years later, a stunningly beautiful girl (a solid 10) walks up to me and say, "Hi, Bill."

I am delighted that a 10 is talking to me at all, even more so that she initiated the contact. I'm also dumbfounded as to "Why me?"

She reads the confusion on my face and say, "It's me, Allyson!"

It is. My brain fills in the details. I recognize her.

No more boney bump on the nose. Just a simple, cute, unremarkable nose.

In that moment, I realized that my only hope of escaping the "friend zone" with her had been her nose. I had thought for years that her nose was a tiny flaw that might have left me an opening. Now, thanks to rhinoplasty, that door was slammed shut and bolted.

I mumbled something polite and shuffled off. My Oneitis for Allyson lay in shards behind me.

Bill

MackDamage said...

It may even go deeper than just "Loyalty" as that is the main concern for us Men, we don't care too much about "Love" but rather "Loyalty" an "Respect".

Also I think this chick doesn't have a problem playing the "submissive" role and many other countries other than the U.S have other ideologies and cultural traits.

just visiting said...

@ spacetraveller

In your comment to Ceer you provided a link about vaginal reguvination. Apparently a lot of teens don't like how they look down there, requiring surgery. And as for procedures for tightening things up, would a young girl really need this? The selling point for women seems to be cosmetic (look like the pictures in playboy) and sexual satisfaction. So, a cautionary warning to those thinking about it.......

I'm not sure if the procedures are as extensive as what I went through, but when I had my first child, there were complications. We both just about died, and foreceps were used. (An interesting choice in this day and age, but, I digress.) Reconstruction was required.

Well, cosmeticly, my lady bits were better than new, Hollywood perfect. But for the next year, sex was not. The first month that we resumed sex, entire tubes of ky (yes, tubes plural) were required. It got better as the year went on, but sex was impossible without lube. It was worse than being a virgin. It was painful, it was short,and incredibly frustrating.

And there's only so much ... give. Subsequent children required cutting and stitching.

Seriously, anyone who would do this if they didn't have to should think twice. Perhaps keigles or yoga.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Leap,

Interesting points! The article you link to is thought-provoking. It sure makes sense. I can confirm that as a woman, when I make the effort to dress well, I am never thinking 'power', but rather, would one (or many) men like what I am wearing enough to keep my company :-)
For a job interview or something formal like that, I might try to look 'professional' but even so, the guy in the sharp suit always looks more professional lol.

"Most women defend women they don't know to the death, because they have enough distance for solipsism to kick in."

Hahaha, this is true if I am honest. But significantly, it could go the 'wrong way' for women, in that a woman can be goaded into taking the wrong decision by other women (aka 'the herd') eg. woman feels unhappy in her marriage and is (naturally) upset about something: and her friends might say 'kick him to the curb!', which might well be the wrong decision in the long run. This is what I mean by a certain lack of loyalty by women. It is different if the women who are doing the goading are not experienced enough to know that rash decisions like this are bad, but more often than not, it is women who have already made this mistake and regretted it who will advise a younger woman to make the same mistake. I think we have discussed that issue on here before.

@ Grasshopper,

"The former, if you ladies are honest, you do indeed consider ‘relationship material’. "

Ah, Grasshopper, I wonder if you misread JV's comemnt. She says it is SHE who is not relationship material if she has to be Gamed all the time. We are all agreed that we ladies do think a man who can Game IS relationship material. No-one is disputing that, I hope.
But I come a-cropper somewhat now that you have forced me to reflect more on JV's comment. I like to be Gamed...somehow I enjoy it, especially now that I understand it and what it's for...
And now I worry that I might not be relationship material.
:-)
Oh dear...

Bill,

I am not sure I read you right. Just to clarify, you rated Allyson higher with the rhinoplasty than without, so at least on the surface of it, it was a good thing. But not that that's the point!
I wonder, do you men actually like imperfections on a woman, because it helps to take her off the pedestal a bit? Or is it more to do with the idea that if she is too attractive, you will have trouble fending other men off? But I guess it is a question of trust. If she is not the type to flirt with other men, then there is no need to worry if she is super-attractive, no?
I am not sure I understand your angle on this. Please enlighten me!

By the way, do you gentlemen think that cosmetic surgery (where there was no injury/damage etc prior to the intervention) is a form of 'cheating'?
My take on this is, 'whatever works'.
For example, I used to have more 'respect' for people who lost weight through exercise and diet than through bariatric surgery. But now I have changed my mind! If bariatric surgery works for someone and they avoid premature death due to their obesity, I respect that, equally with if they manage to lose weight the 'hard' way.
Is a woman who has been 'surgically enhanced up top' more or less desirable than a woman who is naturally appealing (whatever that may mean to each individual man) all other things being equal?

Bell,

Yes, I see your point. 'More' is the operative word nowadays, isn't it?

Spacetraveller said...

JV,

Whoa, thanks for sharing. I am sorry you went through all that. My first thought when I read your comment was 'I am NEVER having children!' but alas, that's my immature side coming out.
If I do have children, I fully expect it to be difficult. I am over 35. The thought scares me. But still, I live in hope...

Interesting that we should be talking about this. Just 3 days ago, a friend came over from England to visit. She is a gynaecologist, and she just had her first baby under a year ago. Like me, she is over 35. She told me that throughout her pregnancy she was convinced she would not have a live baby. She worked as a missionary in parts of Africa where the infant and maternal mortality are well over 30%. So for her, just to have a live baby was blessing enough. So she thought my question as to the 'experience' of childbrth was odd. She thinks that in the West, too many people are ungrateful that they get a baby who is alive, and a mother who is complication-free at the end of 9 months.

I was reminded of that when I read your comment. You went through so much pain and trauma. So of course your reconstructive surgery was required, and even so, you still had additional pain and trauma.

And then there are silly 16 year old girls having labial surgery 'just to look good down there'.
Youth is wasted on the young...

Spacetraveller said...

@ Mack,

Agreed. I have noticed this too. It fascinates me, being, um, someone who is more focused on 'love' rather than 'loyalty and respect'.
It takes a concerted effort to think like men do.
I must say, though, that loyalty and respect are just as important to women in LTR/marriage. I refer only to how men and women relate to each other.

MackDamage said...

@Space Traveler

I see your point!.

Believe me for Men "Loyalty" is how we will show you we are dedicated to you. NOT so much on "Love".



Good Post!

just visiting said...

@ ST


As for being worried about liking to be gamed ,I don't think you need to worry. I'm thinking of women who need to be hard core gamed because of narcissitic issues or lack of self control. Soft core game is fun and flirty.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Mack,

Thank you for concretising this idea for me.
Let me explain why I am so fixated on this point.

I think as women, we (quite naturally) want displays of affection, just like we would show other women that we actually like.

But it is useful to know that a man's love, whilst not being like that, is still love. Just packaged differently.

I know a woman whose husband was faithful to her from their wedding day to his death, who never hit her, who never so much as looked at another woman. Who said 'no' to her when she asked him for a divorce when she was 'not happy' in the hope of keeping her.
And yet she believed he was the worst husband on Earth. Other women are dealing with abuse (physical), cheating, maltreatment of all sorts...but just because they know how to say 'I love you' at strategic points, they get away with it.
Women are auditory. That much is clear to me. It is our Achilles' heel, for sure.

But if we are 'trained' to see how men love, perhaps we would have more harmonious relationships.
The man I refer to never left his wife (in body) until his death. But he gradually withdrew his love and became increasingly emotionally cold towards her, whilst remaining faithful. And she never 'got it' that she was inducing his withdrawal by her actions and her attitude towards him.

@ JV,
The kind of Game that Danny dishes out on a daily basis is ideal for me.
:-)

(Um, just don't tell him that).

Is this an INTJ thing?
I don't know why these men are so magnetic to me. All the INTJs I know Game me to within inches of my life.
And God help me, I like it.
Even though I always feel like I need to go to Confession or something each time I encounter one.
They are all also uncannily similar!
Let's just say they are my Achilles' heel :-D

just visiting said...

Perhaps an intj thing. Or perhaps you inspire them to good game.

Marellus said...

How do INTJ's differ from INFJ's ST ?

Anonymous said...

@ST,

Just to clarify, you rated Allyson higher with the rhinoplasty than without, so at least on the surface of it, it was a good thing. But not that that's the point!

Correct. Before the nose job, I felt that I had some tiny chance with Allyson. Post-NJ, she was perfection on a plate. No hope in Hell for nerdy, Game-less young Bill.

I wonder, do you men actually like imperfections on a woman, because it helps to take her off the pedestal a bit? Or is it more to do with the idea that if she is too attractive, you will have trouble fending other men off? But I guess it is a question of trust. If she is not the type to flirt with other men, then there is no need to worry if she is super-attractive, no?

At some primal level, I think we men understand hypergamy. When Alyson was a 9 with a schnozzola, I felt that I had some tiny chance with her. Because i could rationalize that her nose really made her a 7. And i was, at best, a 6 back then. Close enough that i thought i had a chance.

As a 10 without flaw or imperfection, I knew that she could have ANY man she wanted. So why not have the best? I knew deep down inside that I had ZERO to offer her. It wasn't about whether she was trustworthy. I knew I was completely outclassed. In a day or a week or a month, whatever I had that attracted her would be eclipsed by a Better Deal.

Bill

dannyfrom504 said...

ST-
of course you love it. why do you think i do it. *wink*

the gf from Japan was the least attractive of all my gf's. i'f say looks wise she was 6.5 maybe even a soft 7. and she was quick to point out that she wasn't the prettiest belle at the ball, but you know WHY i gave her a second chance?

she was cool. she was fun. i liked having her around. my choice had NOTHING to do with her looks. i have a pic of her on my blog somewhere. her and i where riding an elephant in Thailand.

was she hot? no.

but she was pretty enough to pique my interesst.

Mahal-

shut your mouth. you ARE beautiful.

dannyfrom504 said...

ST-

as far as the poverty thing. i am VERY SERIOUSLY considereing homesteading when i retire. which is essentioally getting rid of 90% of the crap i just have no need for and whatever i make off selling my house i'll be buying a travel trailer and parking it on a few acres in La.

the few books i've read by people who are doing just that all say they only have one regret-

they didn't do it sooner. when my mom got to my house, she noticed all the books on solar power, micro farming, and homesteading and she said, "you're really serious about this aren't you?"

she knows me by now, once something piques my interest, i study it with complete devotion.

INTJ ftw? lol

Spacetraveller said...

@ JV,

"Or perhaps you inspire them to good game."

JV, I LOVE it when our hamsters agree with each other!
:-)

Your and my hamster should indulge in a spot of 'synchronised spinning' in the Hamster Olympics.
(Sorry, couldn't resist that one - still got the Olympics on the brain lol).

Bill,

Ah, thanks for that explanation. I get it. And now I see why confidence on the part of a man is so important independently of the 'status' of the woman. And why 'Outcome Independence' really is borne out of said confidence.
By the way, I can also see why I struggle to be 'outcome independent' (although I think am making great strides in this area, don't get me wrong). Confidence, as in the kind of 'power' that Leap's linked article talks about of course doesn't come naturally to a woman, especially one who is keen to reject anything that 'masculinises' her any more than society already has.
So if you need that extra dose of 'confidence' that testosterone can give you, to be 'outcome independent', then it will be hard to achieve it as effectively as a man can achieve it. No excuses, though! I am sure there is a way...just need to find it.

"And i was, at best, a 6 back then."

Somehow, I find this really hard to believe, Bill!
What criteria do you use to rate yourself on? To rate a woman, I totally get it that it has to be based on looks. But for a man, are you rating him on confidence, or also on looks? Just curious...

Marellus,

I am no expert on personality types, but I think the difference is that whilst INTJs are pure logic, INFJs are pure 'feeling'. Otherwise, these two types are virtually identical.
Anyone care to correct me on this if I got it wrong?

Danny,

Thanks for pushing my buttons, mate. Well it's fun, so I am not exactly complaining. Just don't escalate lol.
Interesting about your japanese gf...

"shut your mouth".

This is soooo British, I can't tell you. Made me laugh out loud. This is how Brit teenage girls talk to each other.
Have you ever seen a Brit comedy series called 'Little Britain'? There is a character in it called Vicky Pollard who is a very funny parody of the modern teenage girl. "Shut your mouth" is the sum total of her vocabulary. Hahahahaha!
Here is an example of Vicky's exploits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7rnVWo7SGM

I see where you are coming from with your desire to go live on the land. One of my uncles is a doctor, and for a long time all he wanted was to go farm a piece of land in a third world country! He still does. As he comes up to retirement, he just might resurface his lifelong dream. We'll see.
Now, the simple life does not always equal the poor life though. I must say, it appeals to me in a big way too, although for me it's probably impractical right now...

I find Leap's point that Zuckerberg is uncomfortable with his wealth interesting. I had interpreted his behaviour as someone who just wants to keep it simple, a trait I really admire in the very rich.
But I think I can understand what Leap is saying, with a little bit of imagination...

Marellus said...

Vicky Pollard ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGscoaUWW2M

Anonymous said...

@ ST,

"And i was, at best, a 6 back then."

Somehow, I find this really hard to believe, Bill!


At 17, I was:

1. Skinny and with little muscular development.

2. Physically clumsy and awkward.

3. Socially awkward. Think high-functioning Asperger's.

4. Fully conscious of my shortcomings and, therefore, my low SMV.

Over the years, I addressed most of those issues. I don't look all that different almost 40 years later than I looked at 17. But I have:

A. Aged well, particularly relative to my contemporaries. My age-adjusted rank is now a 7 or 8 (so I'm told).

B. I move with more grace, thanks to physical conditioning and (especially) fencing.

C. I learned how to behave in more socially appropriate ways.

D. I am aware (thanks to studying Game) that my SMV is favorable.

Confidence comes from knowing myself, my strengths and weaknesses.

Outcome independence grows from knowing that whatever opportunity is before me is probably not the only or even the best opportunity that I'm going to have. And from stripping away the things that aren't really important to my long-term happiness.

Bill

Bob Wallace said...

@Spacetraveller,

"All the INTJs I know Game me to within inches of my life."

I am an INTJ and there are certain women I know exactly how to behave toward. They sometimes get tongue-tied. Usually it involves teasing him in a way they don't expect at all.

Anonymous said...

@ ST,

You are an INTJ. If you read the MBTI practitioners, we INTJs are the only personality type attracted to our own kinds. The "opposites attract" aspect of most relationships isn't there for us.

Danny and I are both INTJs. So is Professor Mentu. It is no surprise to me that we Game the hell out of INTJ women. It is our nature.

Bill

Anonymous said...

I must be the only person on the internet who pays no attention to this MBTI stuff. I've got a working theory that it's a new pseudo-scientific psychobabble to replace horoscopes and astrology for predicting human behavior.
I also wonder if Scientology uses this stuff.

Just another label. Bah, humbug.

The Navy Corpsman

Spacetraveller said...

Marellus,

Thanks for that video. Classic Brit comedy :-)
But it has nothing to do with Vicky Pollard. Did I miss something?

@ Bill,

Ah, I see. You sound like you have come a long way! Congratulations. I feel like this too, although of course unlike you, my SMV is going down all the time :-(
But still, I live in hope, lol.

You know, I would never have guessed you were as you describe yourself at 17, having some evidence as to your present condition ;)

By the way, I am not an INTJ! At least I have never tested as such whenever I have taken the test, and I have taken it several times now. But I do find myself drawn to INTJs, yes. I don't really know why.

@ Bob,

"I am an INTJ and there are certain women I know exactly how to behave toward. They sometimes get tongue-tied. Usually it involves teasing him in a way they don't expect at all."

I am certainly one of those women! :-)

@ NC,

I bet you are an INTJ too...
:P

Peter said...

ST, did you know that 90% of MGTOW are INTJs?

Spacetraveller said...

Peter,

No, I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me in the least!
I read somewhere that INTJs are the most independent of all personality types. Combine that with men's natural reluctance to merge their lives with potential EPLers and ... Houston we have a problem.
Lol.

Anonymous said...

Spacetraveller said...


"@ NC,

I bet you are an INTJ too...
:P"

Took the test twice, two semesters apart in two different classes (had to take SOME non-science classes). First time, I tested INTJ and second, ENTP. At that point, the whole thing became invalid in my eyes. And no, I don't suffer from multiple personality disorder.

Read the wiki entry on MBTI, and you'll see a whole lot of studies have shown poor correlation and horrible validity to the test.

I'll stick with being me, and I don't worry one bit about being pegged as anything other than that. It's not that I don't care, it's that I cannot care any less.

The Navy Corpsman

Bellita said...

Here is more fodder for the skeptical chip on NC's shoulder. (What an awful mixed metaphor! Hahahaha!) I tested INTJ for years--not just on the Internet but also when my schools and one employer made me take tests--but after I read the descriptions of the different functions, I'd swear I'm an INTP.

Davesuperpowers (who has a channel on YouTube) had an interesting explanation for why virtually all of the tests are unreliable, even if the model itself has merit. I can't find it right now, but I can send you the link, ST.

Spacetraveller said...

Thanks Bell,

I would be interested to see it.

As you know, I too was very scepitcal about personality testing, until you and Bill got me into it :-)

I take it as a guide, and for me, that's good enough. Not everything can be explained by one's personality type, of course, same as not everythng can be explained by evopsych. But it's a good general guide...And I find it interesting and fun, so wins all round for me :-)



Jacquie said...

I'll stick with being me, and I don't worry one bit about being pegged as anything other than that. It's not that I don't care, it's that I cannot care any less.

Is this the indication when you’ve finally hit that point in your life when you find freedom? Real freedom. The kind of freedom that no matter who says what about you, you turn away without giving a second thought to what they said. That place where the rules are truly your own. That the hole the world wants you to fit into hasn’t been drilled and they just don’t know what to do with you. Can we be that unique? The world clamors at you, but you can’t hear it, you’ve tuned it out and you’re listening to your own silence. There’s a peace inside and what happens around you is what is, you accept it for what it is, you accept you for who you are, your loved ones for who they are and you’ve stopped trying to change it all. It just is. All of it. You make peace and you live it.

Am I rambling now? Perhaps I am. This is what I just wrote about, or tried to convey in my post about coming full circle. I was at that point, or close to it, but I couldn’t overcome the noise at an earlier age. It doesn’t matter to me now. I am who I am. I’m not perfect at it. I still struggle a little. Hopefully less each day. Funny thing is I was going to buy that book and take the test and see where I fit after reading some of the past comments on this site about it, but then didn’t. The full realization that I will never quite fit any one standard is hitting me. And like NC, I cannot care any less.

Anonymous said...

Once again, I wrote a small novel in response to Jacquie, and realized that a single line would suffice.

"I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam, says Popeye the Sailor Man!"

Short, humorous and to the point. Solipsism and Stoicism and Socrates be damned.

The Navy Corpsman

Marellus said...

Well said Jacqui.

Me, I like their insults ... for then I can retort.

Keep it up.

Spacetraveller said...

Jacquie and NC,

I see what you mean, but even though in real life I seem rather 'in my own world', I can't say that I have got to the stage you describe. I DO care a great deal what others think of me. But I can see how that could be a problem...

Perhaps this will come, for me in the future?

Maybe it is a 'stage of life' thing, and I just haven't got to that stage yet...?

Anonymous said...

Spacetraveller said...

"Jacquie and NC,

I see what you mean, but even though in real life I seem rather 'in my own world', I can't say that I have got to the stage you describe. I DO care a great deal what others think of me. But I can see how that could be a problem..."




Remember this?

"When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice."


It's relatively easy, once you think about it. Stop living your life for others, stop allowing others to dictate every aspect of your life. Yes, you will eventually find some exception such as your job, but the point is to focus on your self and yourself. This goes hand in hand with "Do not hurt others in the process of living", and the quote above.

Life is a balance, Miss Spacetraveler. Only you know what it is to balance, and how to find it, for yourself. Sometimes, you WILL go too far in one direction or another, and you'll need to reset, so to speak. It's allowed.

You may not be able to say you're at the same stage, but I can. You're allowed to CARE, Miss Spacetraveler... no one is suggesting you should not care.

But in the end, even if you do care, how much of a difference does it make? Are people suddenly more likely to be your friend? Are people treating you better?

When you die, will the world cry?

The Navy Corpsman