Sunday, November 18, 2012

La mia santa Mamma!

I had meant to write about something else this week.
But a number of recurring themes kept distracting me.

And I realise now that the one thing in common with all these themes is...motherhood.
This post should really be called 'Motherhood: the good, the bad and the ugly'.

Or rather, 'Motherhood:the beautiful, the sad, and the downright confusing'.

No-one is surprised to hear that a major part of femininity is being a wife and mother. If women are honest, this is what they seek, even without the social pressures.
It is an innate thing, and is stronger than the need (of men) to become a husband and father, evidently :-)

And this is why it is so frustrating for me to hear women who have jumped eagerly on the feminist bandwagon proclaiming that they are so jolly happy being single and childless when the reverse is true. It is deeply upsetting for me to witness people trying very hard to lie to themselves. It should be OK to wish for something. No-one should be brainwashed into believing what they should or should not want.

Because I know that those who actually are happy to be single and childless, are not trying to convince anyone that they are. They simply go about their lives in a quiet manner, and only defend their stance when challenged.

But I mustn't get distracted.

I addressed motherhood before, where I painted a pretty bleak picture of obviously bad, sad and complex motherhood, with the caveat of course, that we all know pretty well what bad fatherhood looks like, because we are fed this image in a never-ending campaign against fatherhood - for who's benefit, I am not entirely sure.

But anyway, must not get distracted again.

In two directly opposing 'verdicts' of the children, I present to you, the saint and the (d)evil.

First the saint:

This woman refers to her mother as My saint Mamma :-)
(Which I guess could also be translated as 'my holy Mamma', but I do believe she intends the first meaning).

But then again, not many of us have mothers who have actually been canonised as saints by the Catholic Church (even if we feel they deserve that accolade anyway :-). So she is in a unique position, and her amusing and endearing way of talking about her mother is perfectly justified.

Dr. Gianna Emanuella Molla would not be alive at all if her mother Saint (also Dr.) Gianna Beretta Molla hadn't opted to exchange her life for hers. It was a simple choice in that sense. Despite her doctor colleagues' advice, she went ahead with her high risk pregnancy and lost her life as a result.

Her (youngest) daughter, who never knew her, as she died soon after her birth in 1962, is her biggest fan. As are her other children who of course lost their mother as young children.

She has an unusually high-pitched voice for a 50 year old :-)
(I am not sure there are videos of her speaking english, although I am pretty sure she does speak english).

It is obvious that The Church agrees with her that her mother is a saint.
But I am slightly uneasy about this one, and have been for a long time: The elevation of one child (albeit unborn) over all the other children and spouse (not to talk of self, which happens to be responsible for all the already born children) seems a bit...not correct, no?
But I can see why St. Gianna Molla is a saint nonetheless.
As is this Australian woman:

However I feel about the dilemma St. Gianna Molla undoubtedly faced with bravery, it has to be said that at least she is a thousand times better than this woman, whose own 10 year old child refers to her as 'evil'.

 This should never be a word that a child uses to describe his mother.

And yet, and in increasing numbers, I am coming across many comments by Manosphere denizens (and they are not the only ones!) who have nothing but disdain for their mothers.
And it is the same disdain that dissatisfied men have for women in general. One would presume that their own mothers would be 'immune', right?

Apparently not so fast.

I choose not to post the comments here, because they really are filled with 'choice' words that make one uneasy when it is known that someone's mother is the subject thereof.

Other than the more usual complaint that their mothers 'divorce-raped' their (beta) (sorry Bob!) fathers, these men also have a new complaint that I am only now beginning to get wind of:

One man's complaint could be summarised thus:

'My (expletive) mother wanted me to 'man up and marry a single mother'.

Now, this complaint is different from the usual 'man up' one. Because at least that is an (albeit thinly veiled) attempt by mothers to get their sons to produce grandchildren for them. I understand this completely, although I also of course 'get' the frustration that this elicits in the young person.
If it is any consolation, we women have to face this on a daily basis too :-)

But what I don't understand (and clearly neither does the man who makes this bitter complaint against his Mum) is how a mother would not only be happy with seeing her son commit to a woman who already has a child or children by another man (and it certainly is not rare, this phenomenon - just ask Queen Sonia of Norway), but is actively pushing her (unwilling) son into such a situation.

It really does not make sense to me.

And I can see why the son feels his mother does not have his best interests at heart. If the woman who should love you the most does not have your back, you are truly doomed.

Interestingly enough, I don't think I would necessarily feel the same way if my father wanted me to marry a man with children.
Sure, that wouldn't be my first choice of marriage partner, but I imagine there's a real difference in judging this sort of situation by the different genders.

I would however feel as this man did, if my father encouraged a PUA to 'pump and dump' me.
So perhaps this is the kind of equivalent level of betrayal, that this man feels from his mother.
Seen from this angle, I can very much feel his pain.

It is deeply worrying to me that the reputation of motherhood has sunk this low. It used to be that motherhood was sacred.
Now I am not so sure it has the same 'sparkle' it used to.
Respect seems to have flown out the window quite a bit. Thrown out, seemingly by mothers themselves.

Is this a new phenomenon?
Am I imagining this?
I sure hope so...
But something tells me I am not.

It is bad enough that women are getting such bad press in the SMP from men.
It is infinitely worse that these same men are not impressed with their mothers.

In ten years' time, that ten year old who described his mother as 'evil' will be encountering women as romantic partners. How tragic that his experience so far with women has been less than sterling.

And sadly, the growing army of single mothers who are giving themselves medals for being 'brave' will be forced to look at themselves hard in the mirror when their children who would undoubtedly have harder lives than would have been the case fail to be impressed at their 'bravery' and question their choices instead.

Elevating child over spouse/'partner' is not the way (unless of course you are St. Gianna Molla).
After this 'rule number one', with respect to said child, having their best interest at heart always, should be 'rule number two'.

Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Is this a good way to go about things?
Or is this the rambling of a deluded soul who doesn't understand motherhood? :-)

Don't be kind on this post.
Educate me.
Especially if you are a mother, but not exclusively.


just visiting said...

It doesn't surprise me. I think that the if we were to do a poll within the manosphere, 90% of them would have anger issues with their mother's.

just visiting said...

If there is one thing that drive;s me nuts more than anything else, it has to be single mom's with bad taste in men. The moment you become a parent, you don't have the luxury of weakness.

Spacetraveller said...

Somehow, JV, this DOES surprise me! It's one thing to feel a bit angry at Mum for telling you to 'be yourself' or 'when are you going to get married?'

But it is another entirely new kettle of fish to feel what could be described as true betrayal from one's own mother.

If this is the case, then the problems of the SMP are much deeper than they seem.

And now all of a sudden, those 'Mama's boys' that women seem to abhore so much?
They seem so much better now!

I would much rather a Mama's boy than a Mommy hater, you know?

And I bet I am not the ony woman who feels this way...

just visiting said...

That's key. A man who has mother issues is going to have wife issues. And sometimes it can take a while to reveal itself. Nice guys and alpha's alike. I'll take a doting son to a loving mother any day. And such men usually have confidence mixed in with a pleasant personality.

The tricky part is navigating men with difficult relationships with their mothers. And they can be nice guys or alphas. I look for cues on how they interact in the present. Afterall, one can rise above a difficult childhood. But in this case, it takes longer to really know if they have or not.

I would not feel comfortable dating a man who is still actively angry or hurt in the mother son dynamic. I'd worry about how much of that would get projected on to me.

just visiting said...

The petulant son dynamic is a bad one too. Overindulged and entitled without appreciation for sacrifice.

Spacetraveller said...

Absolutely, JV.

To balance things out, I also have big issue with mothers who elevate child over spouse.

I am pretty sure this drives men crazy. Whilst it's natural to love one's children, it is also not correct to place the man who helped make those children into second place beyond the infancy of the kids.

I think this over-indulgence in the kids makes a lot of women unloveable by their own husbands, and later undateable by other men when things fall apart in their marriages/relationships.
And this also causes problems with the children when they grow up and they find that Mum is now dependent on them emotionally, because she failed to bond properly with her romantic partner, be they the children's father(s) or other men they are in relationships with.

This makes a lot of single mothers disadvantaged in the SMP, quite apart from the fact that a lot of men these days would not choose to date a woman who has 'financial' baggage in the form of another man's (dependent, i.e. young) children.
I think if a woman who has children is able to demonstrate that she will be a proper partner to a man, rather than just want him as an extra pair of hands to raise her children, many men might be willing to commit to them. But as it is, it does not seem a good deal to men.

I think this is a real shame.

I wonder if a man would be willing to give his honest opinion on this topic.

I think it might be akin to a man putting work before his wife and children. This drives women crazy too.

Ceer said...

There comes a time in your life as a person when you stop accepting (or rejecting) everything your parents say and look at their advice at face value. When that day comes, you can honestly take a stock of those parents' good and bad points.

My own mother managed to stay married to my father, pass along the faith, and cook many meals while I was growing up. She helped provide moral discipline.

My own mother also votes based on her emotions without regards to the fiscal reality of our country. She's a feminist who scoffs at the problems men face, and had absolutely no idea about how to train an introverted boy who lacked charisma. To this day, I cannot have a serious conversation with her about young men's issues because of her ideology. She responds well to agree and amplify, though.

Perhaps just visiting would want to "watch out" for me.

In an age where the previous generation lacks so much of what is needed to train their children for the future, it's not surprising that

Spacetraveller said...


I really appreciate your comment!

What you describe between you and your mother is what I would term a 'normal' mother-son relationship. I do not quibble at all about this scenario.

Yes, there does come a time when you start to see your parents as not 'your parents' but regular people with faults that you will judge based on their actions, like everyone else you encounter in life. That point arrives sooner for some than others.

In your case, and in the case of many Mansophere men, I guess with the Red Pill also comes the realisation that Mum is not actually the perfect woman she has seemed throughout your childhood. And that all that stuff you read on blogs about women actually apply to her too.
But in may ways, this is not a tragedy, in my opinion. So your parents are not perfect. Big deal!
Actually, I think it is healthy for one to suddenly arrive at this point, because it allows you to express your own maturity in a way that would have been impossible growing up and under the thumb of your parents.
it is quite manly to be able to do as your Dad does, and nod knowingly at each other when your Mum says something outrageously Blue Pill, and you just know that she will never see your point of view on that matter. It is nice if you and your Dad can be 'collaborators' on this, but of course, more often than not in this day and age, Dad is absent from your life, and even if he is there, he is just as Blue Pill as your Mum! In which case, you 'agree and amplify' and make your exit at the earliest opportunity, lol.

No, what bothers me more, is the real hatred that some men have for their mothers, especially where this is actually justified. But society has no mercy for a man who hates his mother, whether or not he is right to do so. For one, most sensible women will run a mile from such a man, unless they are patient enough to come closer and discover the truth. This is tricky to achieve.

I fear for that 10 year old boy who is starting life with no rspect for his own mother (justifiably). And all those young single mothers who are out on the town every night with 'revolving door' attitudes to 'dating' who are not aware that their kids are watching. In ten years from now, those kids are going to ask: 'Was my mother worth it?' And sadly, the same question to Dad would not even apply because he might be 'unknown'.
There seems to be a problem whereby some mothers overpedestalise the kids to the exclusion of everyone else including Dad, or do the opposite, where the kids do not get the basic care and attention they need when she is off on the town every night. There are certainly enough examples of these in the mainstream media, so I know this is not in my imagination alone...

metak said...

Manosphere men have Mommy issues and Feminist women have Daddy issues...?

@ ST

Even though you've focused on son-mother hatred, I think it's much worse when there are two women involved (daughter-single mother). Talking about shouting, screaming and what not... crazy...
Sure, I resented my mother for forcing me to do some things that I hated (like going to Church... so I had to pull off a Church Break ;-)... etc. and as I've said many times, there's a big Cultural difference also. I've noticed that there's a lot of "idealizing" going on in western world. Some men thinking that women are angels and "Red pill" will wake them up, idealizing parents, thinking that voting matters... Why?

But to hate someone that much and waste your life on hatred? No. No. That's just insane.

How's this for motherly advice ST?
My mother once said to my older brother that he shouldn't limit himself only to one woman, when he mentioned his new girlfriend... actually her words started with: "Don't be a fool.." Mamma Mia! ;-)

just visiting said...

@ Ceer

I don't think that having different views from your mother counts as unresolved issues or hate. My mother and I are as different as night and day in certain areas, but still very close. Though there were a few years where her choice in second husband caused a rift. thankfully it was a union that didn't last. And thankfully, we were able to resolve hurt and anger.

dannyfrom504 said...

i'm a total momma's boy. however, i've long let go of momma's skirt.

my mom actually taught me the truth about women and dating with one simple rule-

no woman deserves your respect based on her looks, but instead on how she treats you. DO NOT, let a woman'r being attractive distract or excuse her treating you like badly.

word. all she was teaching me was self-respect.

but more to the point, children parrot the relationships they observe. what do you think is going to happen when a boy waytches his father cowed into submission by a bitchy mom?

Grasshopper said...

While I respect JV’s filtering criteria – (i.e. preference for good son to his mother) – it got me thinking however – lucky for you ladies us guys don’t have the same type of ‘mother relationship’ filter.

Geez if we did none of you ladies would get any dates. Ever. ; - )

Almost every woman I have ever known has had “issues” with her mother - usually described as “complicated”. I have 3 sisters – you would think they had 3 different mothers – from the various issues I have not been able to avoid hearing about over the years.

Is there even such a thing as a mama’s girl? I don’t think I have ever met one. I have met plenty of daddy’s girls however – that is something entirely different.


Spacetraveller said...


"Is there even such a thing as a mama’s girl?"

I do believe you are right! I have never met a Mummy's girl either!

Unless she is under 10 years old LOL.

You and Metak have sussed me out. I was determined not to get into the daughter-mother thing :-)
Too messy...
Complicated just doesn't cut it, Sir...

Can we go back to talking about you boys and your Mums now?


"My mother once said to my older brother that he shouldn't limit himself only to one woman..."

You got a Red Pill mother and you are COMPLAINING?
Just kidding...

That advice obviously depends on which stage of life your brother was in. If he was 18 and wanted to marry, I can understand that any parent would be nervous.
If he were 45 however...

But still, it is the intent that counts. Your mother obviously had your brother's interests at heart. Not so lucky for other chaps...


Momma's boys welcome!
You know, like most women I always thought I would never be in support of a Momma's boy.
But in the face of Mommy Hate, I'll take the Momma's boy anyday!

I think the next generation is going to be full of Mommy Haters. Which is sad.
Especially as Dads are voluntarily or involuntarily absent, there will be a generation that is completely out of touch with their parents from...childhood.

just visiting said...

@ grasshopper

I think that I might qualify as a mamma's girl. My mother is one of my closest friends and I'm very devoted to her. But we had our problems during my teen's. I moved out and didn't talk to her for a few years. Pretty angry, actually. But we worked it out

I think that looking at the father figure(s) in a girl's life is important. And you'll notice the plural form. That there is the first red flag for a man. Then, the relationship with this man (men). And on paper, I'd have several strikes against me in this regard,lol. In reality, I don't have any anger issues, and I don't have anything to prove to myself when it comes to keeping a commitment. But, if I were a man, and I met someone like me with my unorthodox childhood, I'd be cautious.

metak said...


Not complaining.. ;-)

No Red Pill woman.. just a mother. Like most of the mothers that were born before in Bosnia, she taught me a lot about women:
- while dating have multiple girlfriends and explore...
- don't tolerate any crap from women...
- don't spend money on women while dating...
- different tricks that women use...
- what kind of women to avoid... and which ones to marry...

Spacetraveller said...


You are a lucky man!