Thursday, January 12, 2012

Special Request

This is not a real post.

I just wanted to make a general point or two.

The first is, I am still getting a few 'you don't know what you are talking about' comments.

Whilst it does not and should not bother me (because in fact it's true to a large extent), I just wish to draw attention to the fact that it is not really helping me or anyone to get to the point where we really know what we are talking about.
Besides I never made any such bold claims in the first place. Even if I seem sure about something, it is still just an opinion.
I am no expert, just someone who wants to figure out if there is a path to a better way forward.

Because, the 'experts' (read: 'officials') are still standing around scratching their heads, so I figured it's time for the inmates to run the asylum, so to speak. I am right behind the bolder inmates before me who started this process.

Second, every other comment seems to be from an 'Anonymous'.
Again, no problem.

The special request is this:
Like many people, I am still unsure what the relative proportions of the movers and shakers in the game are.
At the last unofficial count it seems the MGTOW and the 'not so nice women' far outnumber everyone else.
It might be helpful to see, at least in our own small population sample if this is verifiable.

Would you mind adding at the end of your comment what category best describes you, (in your own opinion or that of others who know you, if you have access to that information) from the description given in the last post? Or you could make up your own category if it is missing in the last post. Sometimes it is glaringly obvious what category you are in! but sometimes I am unsure.

No matter if you are not so inclined to indulge in this little exercise. Just a suggestion. Please comment anyway.

I'll start:

I am Spacetraveller, and I am in category 3: 'nice girl'.
 (Own opinion. Closest friends agree, others unsure).

(PS: Self-identification does not prove anything. But that's all we've got for now)


BeijaFlor said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lost said...

If i have to label myself i'd say i'm mostly Regular Manosphere reader mixed in with some "talent" as i elaborated on your previous post

Anonymous said...

Some info that might prove to be useful:

Most MGTOW are INTP / INTJ. Therefore you can make the educated guess that at most 10% of men are MGTOW (

You may want to rethink how you conduct this survey. With the type of audience you get your results will be disproportional to reality ;)

Anonymous said...

SW - I think you've gotten up to speed remarkably well in a short time. I spent a good year on Roissy, HB, MGTOW, etc and combined on-going and historical personal observations to arrive at a point where I felt I grasped the various viewpoints and information behind everything. MGTOW types heavily skew towards IN's in my experience when it comes to personality types - at least when we did an informal poll awhile back. The flip-side is that it's not limited to us, as evidenced by say, the Japanese and other societies.

I think you're doing well so far. Aside from deciding how immersed you want to get in the pursuit of knowledge, the only other suggestion I'd have specifically is to locate and read that account of the girl who masqueraded as a guy and started dating - NYC I think, talking about how difficult it is to be a guy in a social setting. It's fairly well known but I don't have any links. Aside from being a guy, it may give you a bit of insight as you delve down our particular rabbit hole.

Regardless, thanks for the dialogue and an open mind. It would be excellent to continue it as a co-author (insider/outsider approach) on a book about the disconnecting men in western society.

spacetraveller said...

"MGTOW types heavily skew towards IN's in my experience when it comes to personality types - at least when we did an informal poll awhile back."

Yup, agreed! Perhaps INTJ's especially?

Anonymous said...

The 2% of the population that is INTJ is over-represented in our MGTOW thread asking about it. But not enough for me to use the word especially. Online communities tend to attract certain types in the first place more than others, I'd say INTJ is represented heavily amongst the general MGTOW subset, but not in numbers enough to make broad generalizations. I personally fluctuate between INTJ/INTP depending on the particular test/day/etc.

I think a safe generalization is that IN, INT, INTJ are represented in the MGTOW sphere at increasing levels as a percentage of their total composition. It just comes down to personality types that like to observe, think, and obtain explanations. They just seek them out. Most of my male friends with no self awareness blindly seek out sex and relationships and are not daunted by bad experience after bad experience - they don't really have the inclination or perhaps even capacity to try and figure out what's going on.

This leads me to believe that the actual percentage of MGTOW's is fairly small in society as a whole, and somewhat constrained by the universe it would appeal to (IN, INT, etc). It's important to not confuse with MGTOW guys, men who fall into other categories that can achieve the same results as MGTOW's on society, those would include; homosexuals, MRAs/men fed up with the legal system, zeta males, and men women do not consider potential mates.

When feminism un-hooked women from male breadwinners, it also pretty much obliterated the social lock of low-status/lower-class marriages/female mating desire. Studies show that women rate fully 70% of guys as below average in attractiveness, and combined with the low social status of these men, it makes them un-marriagble. Zetas have the potential to have overlap, but they're a beast nobody has really tackled or defined, but I do think they are another category. The homosexual population continues to increase in size because of the unhinging of social constraints/repression. MRA/men sick of legal issues continues to increase. MGTOW's continue to increase. As a whole, each group has a likely % of male population cap of perhaps 5-10%. Most of the MGTOWs, MRA, Lower-desireds, and even a large portion of zetas and homosexuals would have in decades past ended up in the marriage market. Now, as the percentages who opt out increase in those categories, it has an effect on the market that outweighs their individual sizes. Take for example, that if we removed 30% of the worlds oil supply today - gas prices would increase by probably a factor of at least 500%. This is probably what has happened in countries with advanced herbivore issues (japan) or with declining male participation (russia). The MGTOWs and MRAs will be the vocal ones. The net result is likely going to be quite interesting, probably some mixture of production decline, consumer spending declines, unrest, considerable social friction, and some interesting effects on currently accepted wisdom. Each culture ends up with its own version, the Japanese culture constrains theirs ending in lack of motivation, the Russian one is more depression/alcohol driven. Who knows what the American one looks like.

Grandiose statements about a marriage strike and MGTOW's ending up a significant portion of the population are waay off mark. The devil is in the details. A tiny change or uptick in each group can have huge consequences. It's how the American Revolution succeeded despite having support of like 30-35% of Colonists.

Lost said...

HOLY Acronyms Batman!

spacetraveller said...

You mention homosexual men...

One MGTOW commenter made the point that he often tells people he is gay, even though he is not.
Some people make the assumption that a MGHOW is gay. Sometimes that man does not bother to refute this. One of the reasons I have learned so far is, he really doesn't care.

What about the BLUE PILL man?
I did not include him in my categories because he is unlikely to be in the 'spheres... there such a thing as a Blue Pill man at all? Just because he is not involved in the Manosphere does not equate to being oblivious to the world as it is, non?

So, is blue Pill Man:

a) MGHOW anyway, just in solitude
b) Quietly dying in an awful marriage
c) Fighting back and GHOW even in his marriage ala Kevin Spacey's character in 'American beauty'?
d) All of the above.

Where do I put Blue Pill man?? He may make up 70% of the male population, but you are saying that a significant minority can defeat the majority anyway?

Anonymous said...

Large stigmatization to being gay here in the midwest, so it's not an ideal tactic to being left alone. I just tell people who ask that I don't believe in legal marriage and I'm not interested in a relationship.

Blue Pill man, hrm, I've never really thought of a specific category. You're right, they're not fully oblivious, and many are happy - no refuting that. I think that it rapidly gets even more complicated to partition the other categories, I don't really know an answer to that atm.

A significant, or even a minority of 10% can cause large changes. There are some studies about how strongly held beliefs in 10% of the population cause it to eventually spread to a majority. There are quite a few examples in history of minorities of 30% dominating an entire society - there are modern examples of that in the works in our own country.

I was, however, referencing more economical thought here. If MGTOW is currently 2% of the male population, gay men are 5%, MRAs are 5%, zetas are 5%, and lower class undesirables are 5%, then you can start making economic charts vs. supply/demand of women seeking men, and women seeking marriage. Since such a vast market moves rather slowly, it's likely that even though I just estimated 22% of the male population, the current effect is likely a lower %. As the various parts of the population grow in those segments (even if the ceiling for each segment is only a couple of % higher than current numbers), the effects will continue to increase. It's a lagging effect as it moves the ship of relationships/marriage in this country.

Let's say the max effect is 30%. 30% of men are off the market for various reasons (I'd say its a bit higher because I think that the lower class/undesirable men category will continue to grow). A 30% shock may seem manageable, but the actual effects are much more. A good example is the college relationship game - there has been a couple of close looks at that and lots of stories, it appears that even though the ratio is only 60/40 in favor of women in college, that the social dynamics of relationships are much more severe due to increased competition (and the fact that women look for higher status men - remember the 70% are below average in looks and not to mention social status factors). Likewise, look at estimations of the effects of closing the straights of hormuz would have on oil prices. Look at the last time we had such a shock and what actually happened. Look at Japan's situation. Look at China's aging population and the absolute devastation it will have on that country. Despite a relatively minor percentage movement, the effects will be magnified majorly. This is how a minority can have such a huge impact on society. Heck, a few more examples - irish americans, chinese immigrants on the west coast, the african-american population (never more than 10-12%), the hispanic population - they have all had HUGE impacts on our society, our politics, and our national dialogue, and the effect, as a percentage of the whole, is likely smaller than my estimates of the impact of groups mentioned above.

Sorry, long explanation, but wanted to be clear on my thoughts on it. I have a strong economics/math/history/politics background. MGTOW's won't end up being 20% of the population, they'll be 5% at most, but they are really just a solution/symptom of major societal problems in male/female/legal interactions. The thing is though, those other groups that dovetail in whole or part, combine to achieve the same effect on society in regards to marriage and long-term relationships - that combination, even if it only ends up being 15-20%, can impact our entire society in massive ways.

That being said, heaven help us if the percentages are higher, we could tolerate perhaps 30% - anything over that, and, well, Arab Spring ring a bell?

dannyfrom504 said...

as one prominent blogger told me, "if you've taken the red-pill, you're MGTOW by proxy." i VER MUCH understand and agree with 99% of what they say. HOWEVER.....i love women. and i DO see myself having a future with one. but, in this day and age, i need to be careful and screen the the women i get intimate with well.

spacetraveller said...

@ Danny,

It is possible to avoid divorce rape/custody issues etc by filtering well. It's not easy, particularly for men, but it can definitely be done.
I so do wish you can post the other comment on Game. Please?
I am getting pro help with the technical problems on this blog. Hope to get them fixed in the next day or so.