Etymology and onomastics are the hallmarks of my personal geekiness :-)
But perhaps there is good reason for my love of names. I have five first names.
And I gravitate towards cultures where people have multiple first names.
For example, I have a connection of sorts to Norway.
It is very unusual to meet a Norwegian who has only one first name.
Often the two or more first names are in use together at all times. The middle name is not 'in reserve' for inclusion in official documents only. Usually, the names are double-barrelled and both names are uttered each time that person is summoned.
I am known by different names by different people, naturally enough.
As such, at home I have a certain identity based on my 'home' name. At work, I have a different identity. In other situations, I have yet another one.
Quite the schizophrenic existence.
To add to this mix, my first first name is spelled and pronounced completely differently in other languages. A few people I know insist on calling me by my name in their language. I happen to like that language. And my name takes on a whole new level of sophistcation in that language. In a way that makes me swoon.
Is it me or is it getting hot in here? :-)
Occasionally I get tripped up.
I once happened upon someone at work who only knew me by my 'home' name because she only knew me when I was a small child and her family and mine were neighbours. I had a surreal almost 'out of body' experience being called by my 'home' name in an environment I did not expect this to happen in.
Weird, to say the least.
There are people who are especially careful about name-choosing for their offspring. I concur.
I am not even married (yet) but the names of all ten of my future kids have been carefully chosen :-)
OK, that last bit was a joke.
Or was it?
:-)
Speaking of baby names, I once mentioned on Bellita's blog that if I ever have a daughter, she is going to be called 'Eva'.
I am aware that name-choosing for a child is usually a shared job between two parties :-)
Or more even, if you count extended family :-)
But I might have to be restrained and my lips sealed with duct tape on this one if necessary. I find this name irrevocably enchanting.
And I have never heard of or known an Eva that I did not immediately like. I am not sure why I am so drawn to that name.
I don't really believe in 'name-ology', but people swear by it.
I do know of the importance of a name, though. Articles like this only confirm what I have suspected for ages.
A name might just define your life. The mother of Martina Hingis the tennis player named Miss. Hingis after another well-known tennis player.
Anyone met Professor Kinder the paediatrician? I have.
I see that the sister of Steve Jobs married a guy whose surname was ...Appel :-)
Speaking of descriptive surnames, my own is very descriptive too. Like 'Smallwood' or 'Littlejohn', it is basically an adjective - an uncannily accurate one at that :-)
It is this with dismay that I regard parents who insist of calling their kids 'Jezebel', 'Her' (this is true - a Norwegian couple fought for the right to call their daughter 'Henne', meaning 'her'), the number 'four' - this gem was dreamed up by a New Zealand couple - thankfully they were overruled by the courts... and many more cringeworthy examples.
Moving on to couples, I noted in Pope Game that Pope Benedict's parents were called Joseph and Mary. It would appear that combination produced what you would expect - three holy kids (2 priests and a virtual nun!).
My next-door neighbours are a couple named Emmanuel and Emmanuelle :-)
I also know a Joseph and Josephine. Naturally, when their first son arrived, he was promptly named Joseph :-)
Poor old Lauren Bush, spare a thought for her. I am pretty sure she wasn't looking to acquire the name Lauren Lauren, but that's exactly what she got when she said 'yes' to Ralph Lauren's son.
And the poor girl whose parents thought it would be cool to call her 'Dia' when the family name was 'Rhea'.
There is a popular Swiss cheese/dish called 'raclette'. Given that it is a feminine noun, it is often referred to as 'la raclette'.
So...what to do if you are a Belgian couple called Monsieur et Madame Clette who have just had the stork deliver a female bundle of joy at your doorstep?
You call her Lara!
And forever and ever, this poor girl will be the butt of cheesy jokes at school, work, social gatherings and in the retirement home :-)
Parents: you can't choose 'em...
Just as well :-)
And what about the name switch that we ladies may or may not undergo?
I would have thought that one of the happy consequences of marriage is that a girl's name changes to that of her husband's. (Except of course if you are Lauren Bush, or Rose X about to marry Mr. Bush in which case this prospect may not be so thrilling.
:-)
But it turns out I am wrong on this.
It never astounds me how many women find it a bore or a chore to take up a man's name when there is no reason to feel awkward about the name.
Whilst I would never say to a woman, 'If you don't like his surname, don't marry the guy' (!) I can't help but wonder why the fuss.
Yes, the state does not help. I mentioned this briefly in 'Dissidents of the 'spheres'.
France is a particular offender in this regard.
It is such a painstakingly difficult process for a (professional) woman to change her maiden name to her husband's name that many simply give up. Or end up with the ridiculous situation where they have two surnames floating about and no-one knows which one is the new one versus the old one.
Some women are genuinely upset about the thwarting of this sacred symbolism. To take one's husband's name is a sign that one is part of his team afterall.
I don't think men appreciate how obsessed a woman can become about a man's surname.
But perhaps that's a good thing :-)
In the same way it is best for some women not to fully understand how men obsess about certain things (mentioning no names).
Others are more relaxed about it.
Others are nonplussed.
Others were never planning on changing their name in the first place.
I know that men (at least Red Pill ones) take this issue very seriously. That is one thing the Manosphere has equipped me with - the insight into how a man views marriage and its various symbolisms.
As a woman, I would never have guessed that not to take on a man's name when one marries him is to slap him in the face figuratively speaking.
I have just always felt it part of the whole 'romantic' thing (nevermind that it is the 'traditional' thing to do) to change one's surname on marriage. But I wasn't to know that not to do that would be viewed poorly by a man.
But I think I understand that sentiment now.
What I still cannot quite figure out is why some men take on their wife's surname. I know at least two men who have done this.
Works nicely for both of these couples. So who am I to make a fuss on their behalf?
But somehow, I have a feeling it wouldn't work for me.
My surname is interesting enough but it ain't that interesting.
If I ever get married, it's got to go.
(Sorry Dad).
:-)
29 comments:
I have two first names that represent a living tradition in my family. My mother, grandmother and great-grandmother and I all share the same second name--and I confess that my desire to have at least one daughter is for the sake of that name. No one else can pass it on because my grandmother gave it to only one of her daughters and my mother gave it only to me.
I am aware that name-choosing for a child is usually a shared job between two parties
One of the commenters on my blog mentioned recently that her husband mentioned when they were dating that he wanted his first son's name to be Mark and that it was non-negotiable. She didn't seem to mind as long as one other son was named Michael. (And she recently gave birth to Son #2, so now they have both a Mark and a Michael!) ST, I'm sure you'll have your Eva. :)
And what about the name switch that we ladies may or may not undergo?
I really would love to take my husband's last name. So I hope it won't "clash" too terribly with mine! ;)
PVW here.
I think that with respect to "the Manosphere" and taking a husband's name, it is a matter of realizing a very important fact.
Those of "the Manospere" are a particular subset of men who have a particular ax to grind about women in today's world and the context of feminism that has socialized them as men and women as women.
They believe a lack of respect for tradition has harmed marriage on the whole, from dating onwards.
Your future husband might or might not come from among them.
The husband did not; he has no clue about the manosphere and as such, with respect to this issue, he did not care that I preferred to keep my name. Our marriage has not been harmed because of that.
We have nothing to prove to anyone; we are happy with our lives and marriage.
When we married, I was in graduate school and I already had a professional reputation in my maiden name. If I were to change it, nobody would have had a clue of who I was.
Everyone who needs to know, knows we are married, even though our names are different. At times, though, we use hyphenate our last names in social contexts, ie., Christmas cards.
@ Bellita,
Awww, you have a duty to that name to keep it going!
And I am sure you will too.
Hey, you don't suppose your future daughter would want to be friends with Eva, do you?
Hahaha!
I wonder what would have happened if your friend had had a girl second time around...would she have been happy to call her 'Michaela' or 'Michelle'?
Or chosen another name and 'better luck next time' with Michael?
Please ask her!
I am curious now!
I must admit - the Eva thing should not really be a non-negotiable for me. I really have to choose my non-negotiables very carefully. I guess this one is in the grand scheme of things, not the most important of issues for me. There are bigger things in life to worry about.
Oh but I DO love this name!
If I don't get my wish and I never have a daughter, I guess at some point I shall have to consider 'Evan' as a possibility...
"I really would love to take my husband's last name. So I hope it won't "clash" too terribly with mine! ;)"
With this in mind, dear Bellita...you should stay away from Mr. Bell, Mr. Ritter or Mr. Mellita...
:-)
@ PVW,
This is a perfect case for why married people should NOT listen to Manosphere types...!
Your marriage works. I say Amen.
I think however that a woman wishing to get married today will not have the same luxury that was available to women even as little as 5-10 years ago.
Not with this backlash against feminism going on :-)
I think a woman wishing to get married now will have to be so much more compliant and acquiescent than her mother or big sister needed to be. Just a hunch :-)
I understand your reasons for not changing your name, of course.
Like I said in the OP, some countries really make it hard for a woman. I have a colleague from France with this problem. I know another woman (again with connections to France) with exactly the same problem.
It's not nice, especially for a woman who really wants to change her name.
Although I may have the same probem as you (professional, known by my professional name of course), I really am not that passionate about my own surname. I don't think I would wish to ever 'double-barrel' either, as my surname is already quite long and so far, I haven't gotten 'enamoured' with any man with a short surname yet :-)
My Dad is no longer alive. But I don't suppose he would have particularly needed me to carry on his name. He fixed this little problem when my elder brother was born :-)
In any case, I do like the tradition of the name change. So much so that even if my profession was an obstacle, I would prefer to 'lose' the profession.
Total folly, I know.
But that's one of my idiosyncrasies.
I think I know the reason why I feel this way, but anyway...there we are.
Moreover, (and this is really lucky for me), I tend to gravitate towards men who wouldn't have it any other way. Fortunate indeed!
Because we would both have the same 'non-negotable'.
So, to borrow a term from Bellita, I have just the right weedkiller here :-)
But I imagine it is hard if one is contemplating marriage and already there is discord about the 'team name'.
I kinda get The Manosphere's gripe about this. It's a question of primordial 'territory-marking' or something. I guess it is to do with male pride/ownership...
Can a man explain this in more detail for us please?
I think you were fortunate that your husband was in agreement with your keeping your maiden name.
I suspect more and more men will take the high road on this in the future. Whether or not they are citizens of The Manosphere.
Just because...
Spacetraveler:
In any case, I do like the tradition of the name change. So much so that even if my profession was an obstacle, I would prefer to 'lose' the profession.
Total folly, I know.
But that's one of my idiosyncrasies.
I think I know the reason why I feel this way, but anyway...there we are.
Moreover, (and this is really lucky for me), I tend to gravitate towards men who wouldn't have it any other way. Fortunate indeed!
Because we would both have the same 'non-negotable'.
My reply:
I can see why you would feel this way, if you are very dedicated to traditionalism, what you referred to as "patriarchy". Giving up the profession, interesting, if it means you can't change your name--that doesn't seem drastic? Give it up altogether? You wouldn't want to keep your professional license up to date even though you might not be in the field? Well, make sure he can keep you at home and that he has enough insurance to take care of you in case he dies! It might be harder to get back in once you give up everything!
As for women having to make more concessions as men might demand them "just because" they can, the Manosphere tells them to; rejection of feminism; demographics, all these put them in the driver's seat? Not implausible, but I wonder whether that might be the case, or some women are coming forward with concessions before the men even ask for them, in an attempt to find a partner?
I see it as akin to the arguments I hear in my women's history classes, "I'm not a feminist, but..." As younger women are fearful of being labeled a "man-hating, lesbian, radical" feminist, they want to qualify themselves so that men might find them more desirable.
What I find striking about that strategy is the "Catholic guilt" thing it seems to evoke. Feminism's failures, faults and so forth have nothing to do with young women today, but they feel the need to accept guilt and compensate? Surprising; there is enough to feel guilty about when you are truly at fault, why accept other forms of guilt?
PVW here again--
Space Traveler:
But I imagine it is hard if one is contemplating marriage and already there is discord about the 'team name'.
I kinda get The Manosphere's gripe about this. It's a question of primordial 'territory-marking' or something. I guess it is to do with male pride/ownership...
My reply:
From what I have seen of it, not in the Manosphere, but when it comes up on occasion in news articles on the subject, when men hear a woman will not change her name upon marrying, it reeks of 1970s era feminism that a woman wants to assert her independence from him; she doesn't want to be on "his team," she doesn't want to be "owned;" he wants them to really be seen as a family, and for them to be a family, they must have one name.
I know a couple who hyphenated both of their names--he took her name and added it on; she took his and added it on.
As for the husband, he is quite laid-back, so he didn't care.
I remember when I sent out Xmas cards right after we were married, my mom though it was amusing that I hyphenated our names, that this was our "team": Merry Christmas from A and B C-D!
My mom wanted to name me a certain name that my father wouldn't go for. (My actual name is a partial scrambling of my parents first names)
So, to one side of the family, I'm one name, and to the other side another. Lol.
Here's where things get a bit twillight zone. In my everyday life, I use my legal name, but eventually friends will start calling me by my other name. Even if they've never heard anyone else call me that. They think that they have coined an original name for me. A nick name of sorts. Kinda weird. (And no, my mother didn't name me something insulting.lol)
As in Bellita's case, certain names are "family" names that go back several generations. Though my mother rejected that name, and went by her middle name from the time she was three. She's been having health issues, and can be doped up at times. If nurses call her by her first name, she doesn't always understand that she's the one being addressed.
the last name thing is definately a thing for me. i'm not down with the hyphenation.
when i get a "it's too hard to change." i respond with, "making a marriage work is difficult too, but you're willing to go through with it."
i make to find out her take on this VERY early in the dating process. if she's not taking my name, i'm not getting married.
@ PVW,
"Giving up the profession, interesting, if it means you can't change your name--that doesn't seem drastic? Give it up altogether? You wouldn't want to keep your professional license up to date even though you might not be in the field?"
Yes, I do think it may be a tad drastic.
But I would still do it if it ever became necessary to do it.
I wouldn't envisage being unemployed, mind - I would find something else to do if it interfered with my role as 'part of the team'.
I have always felt this way - even pre-Manosphere.
And no, it's not necessarily a position my family agree with...
But there we are...
I have a very specific reason I feel this way.
"...or some women are coming forward with concessions before the men even ask for them, in an attempt to find a partner?"
Whilst I have no doubt that this may be true (and who can blame any woman who does this?), I can tell you that there are some women who are intrinsically much more conservative/traditionally-minded than even thze men of The Manosphere would believe. Surprisingly so. I am not necessarily one of these women on ALL issues, but a significant number, yes.
And on such issues, I might actually (inadvertently) come across as implying that the Manosphere is too 'soft'.
This, I assure you, is just my own particular idosyncrasy, and I am willing to accept that it may not be completely normal, yes.
Which brings me onto your very next point:
"What I find striking about that strategy is the "Catholic guilt" thing it seems to evoke. Feminism's failures, faults and so forth have nothing to do with young women today, but they feel the need to accept guilt and compensate? Surprising; there is enough to feel guilty about when you are truly at fault, why accept other forms of guilt?"
Hm. It is no coincidence of course that I am in fact Catholic.
My 'problems' may be something to do with this mea culpa business.
I don't know.
But something Bellita said in one of her posts comes to mind. Bellita said that when she sees a 'crown of thorns', she immediately wants to wear it.
Well, I know someone else who may share this sentiment :-)
But seriously, do not underestimate the psychological impact of feminism on women my age and younger.
In may ways, it wouldn't surprise me to find that many young women who have not been infected with the 'disease' of feminism actually harbour attitudes of fierce defiance against it. In such a manner as to make them 'go the other way' and become 'extremist' traditionalists.
It wouldn't surprise me because I have already seen some signs of it in small pockets. Combined with a patriarchical religion like Catholicism it could get quite interesting.
If I am rational about this, I can see that this may not necessarily be healthy though.
I think it could end up being yet another new 'disease'.
And round and round we go :-)
@ Danny,
Interesting. Why am I not surprised by your take on this?
As a woman who has never envisaged ever contemplating marriage without the name-change that goes with it, I can't help feel that had I been born a man I would have felt the way you do about this.
I think as a woman, I feel the need to be 'taken under the wing' of a man if I felt so strongly about him as to want to marry him. A kind of symbolic 'belonging to him' thing.
Oh God, this feels so jolly primal!
But I wonder if you feel this way because of a similar 'primal' reason, ie. wanting to 'own' her?(this is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one to describe this concept).
You know, most mindsets are de-programmable.
But somehow, this is one I am sure I could never be programmed out of.
Maybe because I wouldn't want to?
I dunno.
Interesting discussion though, I must say...
Lots to think about all of a sudden :-)
@ JV,
Yes, it really does feel a bit twilight zone, doesn't it?
What I have realised over the years is that I feel different depending on the name I am being addressed by. And to some extent who is calling me. When I am called by my childhood name by say, one of my parents, I instantly feel like a 5-year old again. And once, I made the mistake of telling a (good) male friend my childhood name, and then days later, at a time I wasn't expecting it, he called me by that name. It was extremely uncomfortable to say the least, because to feel like a 5-year old at that time was weird...
About old family 'passed down the generations' names, one of my first names serves this function too.
So if I ever have 'Eva', she is also getting this name LOL.
About your mother's situation...yes I can see that it would be so easy for the nurses to explain her non-response with deafness/confusion/oversedation/indifference/defiance.
I have made that mistake too, until someone else in the family explains that they are usually known by a different name!
@ST
With this in mind, dear Bellita...you should stay away from Mr. Bell, Mr. Ritter or Mr. Mellita...
Do you know what's funny? The first of my first names already rhymes with my last name! Hahahaha!
@ Bellita,
Oh yes!
Now you mention it, I see it now...
I wonder...does this make you want to change the surname ASAP or does it make you want to keep it just for the comedy factor?
(Actually, this might seem a silly question given that this name change is linked to marriage! Suppose one could take away the marriage bit, and you were given the option of changing your surname by deedpoll with no particular incentive in mind...)
In which case, another silly question: which would you change? The surname or the first name?
I heard a funny story about a man whose name was Adolf (the equivalent of 'pigsbottom' or somesuch unfortunate surname) who presented himself just after the war to change his name. Everyone thought he was there to change the 'Adolf' part but of course he was there to change the surname!
It had never even occurred to him to change the 'Adolf' bit...
Speaking of which...one doesn't come across men named 'Adolf' anymore...
Hm...
:-)
@ST
I wonder...does this make you want to change the surname ASAP or does it make you want to keep it just for the comedy factor?
There's a bit more to the story . . . For the first twenty years of my life, people knew me by a nickname that didn't rhyme with my last name. I stopped using it when I left for college, and it was the college people who first pointed out to me that my first name and last name rhyme! It's not a big deal to me, though.
A couple of weeks ago, I got into another thread about names. Someone said that when it is time for her to name her child she will ask herself, "If my child marries into royalty someday, will this be an appropriate name for a new prince/princess?" :D
Yes, it's funny, but I think it's another example of how one's name might prove an obstacle in life and love! ;) In that thread, I shared the example of Richard Branson, whose daughter Holly is a friend of Prince Harry. The Branson interview I cited was several years old, but the story is still pertinent . . . He said in the interview that he liked to address his daughter as "Your Royal Highness" because he was certain she would marry Prince Harry someday! And my reaction was: "But with a name like Holly, do you really think . . . ?"
Hahahaha! Outside royal circles, however, "Harry and Holly" sound like a very cute couple. ;) And Harry is dating a girl named Chloe these days (if I am up to date with the news), so I don't know if he would reject a woman just for her name. But I shall be very interested in the name of the woman he does finally marry . . .
Bell,
You make me laugh!
"But with a name like Holly, do you really think . . . ?"
Priceless.
Believe it or not, 'Holly' and 'Chloe' are relatively conservative names as far as our dear Harry is concerned.
I am more worried about him turning up at Buck Palace with a girl named 'Snooky' or 'Jwow' or some such.
You can well imagine Prince Philip's raction, can't you?
"......"
(Thank you Dogsquat :-)
By the way, I came across a tabloid from way back which had ear-marked a few girls of 'high birth' that they thought would end up being serious candidates for Prince William's wife. Holly Branson was one of them!
I think that person whose idea re naming a child you mentioned is spot on...
How nice was it to hear Kate Middleton's names 'Catherine Elizabeth' at her wedding?
It would have deflated the occasion somewhat if her names had been Peaches Monsoon Chardonnay or some other equivalent.
Am I a name snob?
(Please don' answer - rhetorical question!)
But failing 'royal-sounding' names, I must say that I am all for 'conventional' names just because...
Even though (and I shoot myself in the foot here!) I am not necessarily for English-sounding names even though I am British :-)
I mentioned that my own first name sounds better in another language. I also mentioned to you before that I like the name 'Eva' and not its 'English' equivalent 'Eve'.
And there's also the boy-name I mentioned to you before which is far from English...
You are right: 'Harry and Holly' sounds cool.
Even better, 'Harry and Harriet'.
:-)
Gosh, that's another name you don't often hear these days...
ST-
You mean you won't be taking his name, or you will?
I love the fact the women want to/get to be all cosmopolitan with bucking certain traditions of marriage, but men have to toe the tradiational line like a good little doggy.
To me, this sets a precedence for the relationship. I ALWAYS have to make exceptions and compromise while she gets to write her own rules as she goes and see fit.
Sorry, not I said Dan.
Spacetraveler:
I can tell you that there are some women who are intrinsically much more conservative/traditionally-minded than even thze men of The Manosphere would believe. Surprisingly so. I am not necessarily one of these women on ALL issues, but a significant number, yes.
PVW's reply:
It is funny, because I'm conservative and traditionalist minded in some ways too, and to that extent, I agree as well with the "Manosphere."
But with respect to this one about changing names, I don't see what the big deal is--the husband didn't care; it was up to me and I made my choice. I can see though how for some men, it is a sticking point. As a matter of fact, I can think of a few women I know who married long after I did whose fiances made it a significant point, and so they changed it.
Not my issue, not my problem, not my business!
Space Traveler:
But seriously, do not underestimate the psychological impact of feminism on women my age and younger.
In may ways, it wouldn't surprise me to find that many young women who have not been infected with the 'disease' of feminism actually harbour attitudes of fierce defiance against it. In such a manner as to make them 'go the other way' and become 'extremist' traditionalists.
It wouldn't surprise me because I have already seen some signs of it in small pockets.
PVW's reply:
Yes, I see it as well, which is why I mentioned my observations earlier. As for me, since I have a nuanced understanding of feminism (that women's history and feminist theory thing,) I can compare, critique and assess the theories and actually come up with a more conservative perspective on feminism.
Hmmm, I needed to clarify a more conservative perspective on feminism that doesn't reject it outright...
@ Danny,
"You mean you won't be taking his name, or you will?"
I mean I will.
And what's more, for me it is such a sticking point that if I am not allowed to take his name, (in the rare case where a man doesn't want his wife to take his name - and I mentioned 2 men in the OP who preferred to take on the wife's surname as their own for various reasons), I may find it too much of a dealbreaker...
Perhaps this is extreme but it's a big deal for me - always have.
Moreover, I thought this was normal, but I am beginning to see that it may not be quite so normal to be so militant about it LOL...
I don't imagine I would ever need to be quite so militant about it though, simply because I am unlikely to even consider marrying a man who wouldn't want me to take his name on marriage though. So, phew, problem solved :-)
@ PVW,
"As a matter of fact, I can think of a few women I know who married long after I did whose fiances made it a significant point, and so they changed it."
Yes this is the point I also made earlier. I suspect this would be more of a trend in the future because more and more men will feel exactly like Danny feels: 'If she ain't taking my name, I ain't marrying her'.
But I can't imagine that many women would dig their heels in on this!
Even the most ardent feminists would think twice about dropping a perfectly good man for the sake of keeing their maiden name, surely?
(Unlike me who would be totally unreasonable and WILL walk away from a perfectly good man if he prevents me from taking his name. Hahaha!!)
:-)
Please don't feel I am being critical of your situation. I am not!
I am all for happy marriages, marriages that work, and you clearly have one.
Remember I once said that you are the perfect role model/mentor for unmarried women like me?
I still feel the same way of course.
What is becoming clearer and clearer to me though is that things you might have been at liberty to take decisions on (such as keeping your maiden name) may not be something I or another single woman can have a choice on these days as men take a harder and harder line on issues that they feel their fathers were 'slack' on.
In general, as you know, it is much harder to 'cop a ring' as Danny puts it on his blog, than yesteryear.
So the issues a singe woman of today has to deal with is totally different from what you did. The name change thing is but only one of such issues.
So yes, it isn't your problem at all, I agree with you there.
And I say 'Thank heavens' on your behalf.
And on this particular issue I say 'Thank heavens' on my own behalf too, because I happen to agree with the men on this.
But I will of course struggle on issues where I have an opposing view.
Sanctuary space traveler:
But I can't imagine that many women would dig their heels in on this!
Even the most ardent feminists would think twice about dropping a perfectly good man for the sake of keeing their maiden name, surely?
PVW replies:
I agree; it just didn't matter to the women and the men insisted it mattered to them. The women went along for that reason, as I recall.
Sanctuary Space Traveler: (Unlike me who would be totally unreasonable and WILL walk away from a perfectly good man if he prevents me from taking his name. Hahaha!!)
:-)
PVW: Wow!!!
Sanctuary Space Traveler:
Please don't feel I am being critical of your situation. I am not!
I am all for happy marriages, marriages that work, and you clearly have one.
Remember I once said that you are the perfect role model/mentor for unmarried women like me?
I still feel the same way of course.
What is becoming clearer and clearer to me though is that things you might have been at liberty to take decisions on (such as keeping your maiden name) may not be something I or another single woman can have a choice on these days as men take a harder and harder line on issues that they feel their fathers were 'slack' on.
In general, as you know, it is much harder to 'cop a ring' as Danny puts it on his blog, than yesteryear.
So the issues a singe woman of today has to deal with is totally different from what you did. The name change thing is but only one of such issues.
So yes, it isn't your problem at all, I agree with you there.
And I say 'Thank heavens' on your behalf.
PVW replies:
I don't take your view as criticism at all, and I appreciate your admiration; neither do I criticize your view. You believe you (as well as) your generation is facing a whole set of unique challenges. It is up to each woman to deal with them as she sees fit.
@ PVW,
"I don't take your view as criticism at all, and I appreciate your admiration; neither do I criticize your view."
Good, I am glad we are still cool.
I was beginning to fear that we were trading blows a bit. I don't want that - not with you at least :-)
"Wow!!!"
Reading this as part of your comment, it suddenly occurred to me that I haven't explained myself well.
Yes I have a specific issue with the name thing.
But even more important for me specifically is the underlying fear that if a man is 'soft' on the name thing, he may be 'soft' on other issues. So the name thing might (for me at least) be a proxy for something deeper.
That something deeper may be an unresolved fear.
And maybe that's why I am so militant and unreasonable about this.
Maybe I am not coming from a healthy place on this issue.
*sigh*
Why do I feel suddenly like I am in a confessional box, LOL...and that you are the priest on the other side...
Maybe this is something I need to work on...
Time will tell if I can face my demons on this issue and its underlying symbolism.
Maybe I am not quite as mature as I think I am...yet.
Spacetraveler:
But even more important for me specifically is the underlying fear that if a man is 'soft' on the name thing, he may be 'soft' on other issues. So the name thing might (for me at least) be a proxy for something deeper.
That something deeper may be an unresolved fear.
And maybe that's why I am so militant and unreasonable about this.
Maybe I am not coming from a healthy place on this issue.
PVW replies:
No confessor at all, I'm glad, though, to be the one to ask some questions that get you thinking. You alone know what your issues and fears are; you alone know what needs to be worked on. That is a private matter for you alone; your public blog doesn't need to be privy to it!
PVW here:
I must say though, that my "wow" had to do not only with your willingness to leave a good man for that reason, but that you imagined he might "prevent" you from taking his name.
"Prevent" seems like such a strong word and not typical of how these issues might be negotiated. As I said, I have heard of men insisting on a woman taking his name or being neutral to the women's preferences--she can do what she wants.
I can't imagine any man trying to "prevent" his fiancee from taking his name...It is not a situation I have heard of.
On the other hand, if your name is P.F. Worthless, everything else looks good...
The Navy Corpsman
@ PVW,
Yes, a blog is akin to 'thinking aloud', yes, and as such there is always the risk of revealing too much of one's thoughts. Must be guarded against!
(Thanks for that timely reminder).
The 'preventing' thing IS unusual, I agree.
But it is effectively what happens if a man takes on his wife's surname, rather than 'double-barrelling' as you do on Xmas cards.
One of the men who did this is someone I see often as we sometimes work together.
He gives me hives.
And I KNOW it is for this reason.
I react rather badly to things or people that give me hives LOL.
I feel the need to flee...
@ NC,
"On the other hand, if your name is P.F. Worthless, everything else looks good..."
This made me laugh so hard if I have ruptured something I am sending you the bill :-)
Oh how I love masculine humour!
After so many long comments, a one-liner that absolutely floors me.
See? That's why we can't live without you lovable rogues :-)
Oh, my inner five-year-old is SO jealous right now, ST! I once desperately wanted five or six middle names...at this point, I'm content with my name as is, but I'm not above tacking on a couple extra middle names when I have children. =)
I think that I will take his last name legally and in my private life, but continue to use my maiden name professionally. It just makes more sense in my line of work.
@ Caelaeno,
You can have one of my first names!
Avec plaisir :-)
Funnily enough, I once actually made this offer as a 5 year old. My best friend at the time (who only had 3 first names) wanted one of mine to even things up...would it surprise you to know it was a boy?
To him, I guess, it was a competition, who had the most names :-)
I remember feeling so bad that he had 2 fewer names than me that I went home crying to my parents to ask if I could give him one of my names (nevermind that he was being a bit of a bully and my name would have been inappropriate for him anyways!!!)
I was very 'sharing' as a child. The selfishness came later as I grew up LOL.
The following anecdote might disgust you a bit. As it does my adult self. But clearly not my childhood self.
I used to suck my thumb until I was about 6. Each time the family dog would give me his 'sorrowful' look I would offer him my thumb to suck for a while and then straight back into my own mouth! That was my way of 'sharing and caring' for someone I cared about.
Ew!
Oh the logic of the 5 year old :-)
"I think that I will take his last name legally and in my private life, but continue to use my maiden name professionally. It just makes more sense in my line of work."
Well I think this is perfectly reasonable and in fact is a nice compromise as PVW also advocates.
It wouldn't work for me though...My unreasonable self wouldn't want multiple surnames for different occasions :-)
I already have this problem as it is with my first names!!
Oh my, you must have been such an adorable child. Love it.
@ Caelaeno,
Well, the family dog certainly thought so.
Whilst my brother and his friends were trying at every opportunity to torture or kill him I was giving him my thumb to suck.
So I guess he preferred me to them :-)
What are you a spy? 5 first names?
Hello Ms Bourne.... sheesh
Lost,
Blame the parents...they couldn't decide on one or two names, so I had to get them all...
:-)
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