Circumcision - good or bad?

Oh God.
Can I even talk about this?

For this is not so much entering the locker room as bulldozing my way in and getting a full frontal as a result.

Sorry guys. I don't mean to make you involuntarily cross your legs in anticipation of pain.
And sorry, ladies, for dragging you with me into a place you may not necessarily want to go.

I shall keep it clean if all commenters agree to do the same.

Somehow, I feel the need to address this issue.
I get the feeling I may be woefully undereducated on this topic.
My primary interest in this issue is medical :-)
Uh huh, I hear you say...But this is true!
:-)

And the social side is just as important, granted.

By the way, the above title only addresses male circumcision.
Female circumcision is not even a 'circumcision' to me.
It is plain and simple mutilation.
If the goal is to keep young women 'under control' sexually...well, there have to be better ways to achieve that, no?

But of course, there are many men who might declare that circumcision of males is also barbaric, and is also a mutilation of sorts.
Hm. I would certainly say that cutting off a man's private parts ala 'Bobbit' is mutilation.
And as we discussed on an earlier post, that is not funny in the least.
But does circumcision fall into a different category?



I am in the dark on this topic, for obvious reasons.
Perhaps the men would like to educate me on this?

First, a full disclosure of sorts.
Just so you know where I am coming from.

I was brought up to believe that circumcision is the only way.
So I am guessing that all the men in my family went through this procedure.
But as none in my immediate family are younger than me, I never got a chance to verify this :-)
But younger cousins, and of course nephews provide the 'evidence'.


I am not sure where this 'rule' comes from. Is it a judeo-christendom thing (for my family at least)?
For sure, there are lots of verses from the bible regarding circumcision.
This is just one of them:

Genesis 17:9-10 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


So, this practice was supposed to be the outward sign of a covenant between God and Man.
Therefore, if you didn't have this, you weren't in God's 'inner circle' or something to that effect.
This separated Jews from Gentiles.
And during World War II, perhaps it wasn't a good thing to be circumcised. Because it could cost you your life.

I don't know what the Catholic church's stance on circumcision is.
I have never felt the need to investigate this.
Perhaps the Church has no real guidance on this?
I dunno.


But I also know that this practice is very much alive in Islam.
There is a very funny Britsh film called 'East is East' about a Pakistani man married to an English woman, and their life in the '70s in the north of England.
Together they have a lot of kids, at least 6 boys and if I remember right there is at least one girl.

After a visit to the mosque, the Imam takes the father aside to inform him that he has seen that the youngest son Sajid, is uncircumcised.
(Um, anyone know what exactly goes on in a mosque which would have enabled the Imam to determine the state of Sajid's 'equipment'?)

Anyhow, the father, a staunch Muslim, was outraged.
In his family, it was the mother's job to get all the boys circumcised.
Mother's excuse was that she forgot.
The scene is hilarious.
Except of course for little Sajid, who at 12 years old, is about to get intimate with the concept of pain.
All his brothers were 'done' as babies.
I think it would have been well within Sajid's rights to invoke the rule: 'Do me as a baby, or forever hold your piece'.
But alas, he didn't, and the poor lad is marched off to the family doctor...

And when he returns, he no longer has his 'tickle-tackle'.

(This scene is followed by another more poignant scene by the way - but I can't find it on Youtube):
When Sajid returns, in obvious pain, his mother (perhaps for the first time) questions whether she is a good mother. She feels she has let down Sajid, in bending to her husband's will that all their sons be circumcised. She herself is not Muslim, and she doesn't care about circumcision so much...but her husband is clearly fanatical about this and it is a 'non-negotiable' for him. The circumcision thing is just one of many sources of conflict between the father's Pakistani roots and his entire family's British way of life - all the kids were of course born in Britain and saw themselves as British as a result, but father expected them to be 'true Pakistanis'. Hilarity ensues when the father thinks they are devout Muslims when they are in fact eating pork on a daily basis and one of the sons is studying art at college when his father thinks he is going to be an engineer :-)


But shame avoidance of a father aside, what other purpose does circumcision serve?
Here comes the medical part:

I am aware of data which shows in an unequivocal manner that the rates of cervical cancer is lowest amongst Jewish women.
And this has been put down to the fact that Jewish men are circumcised.
I have learned to view social data like this with a pinch of salt in mind.
Is there a confounding variable we are missing?
Could it be that these women are simply less promiscuous?
I dunno.

In the realm of HIV (and other STD) transmission, it has been suggested that male circumcision could cut transmission rates by a significant degree.

Now, I know that The Manosphere is not too fond of this train of thought. Many have seen this as yet another in the long line of misandry wrought by Feminism.
Is this true?
Is circumcision really the answer to infection reduction?
If it is a design fault that a woman's anatomy makes her susceptible to infection, then it is also true that this one part of a man's anatomy is a possible 'reservoir', no?
Not necessarily harmful to himself, but to women he comes into contact with, no?

With all this in mind, it would perhaps surprise no-one that my original title for this post was 'Circumcision - good or bad for women?'

However, given that I still have bruises from the MGTOW post, I reconsidered...
Let's just say I am still a bit dazed from all the 'hazing' I got (thanks, Bellita, for this term!).

I am a huge fan of 'wortspiel'.
Here's one to rival 'pump-and-dump': haze and daze.


I could hear the protests already: 'Here we go again! Why does it always have to be about them?'
I hear ya. Seen from that point of view, yes, it does sound a bit crass.
Even if the idea is to find a healthier solution for society in general.

In the same manner that women who are smokers and heavy drinkers are advised not to indulge in their usual habits during pregnancy for the sake of the unborn child.
It's for the good of society. No woman would argue against the wisdom of this advice.

But...some might question the applicability of this analogy.
Again I hear ya.


But I digress...


Some Manosphere sites provide compelling evidence that the 'data' on which circumcision being seen as the 'cure-all' for HIV transmission is based, is flawed and should therefore be discarded by all concerned.

Again, I dunno.

But I do wonder: Why are men so vocal about circumcision?
Is this because circumcision effectively benefits no-one but a woman - i.e. she benefits from any theoretical reduction in infection rate?
Or is it because circumcision is a painful procedure? In which case, fair enough.
Or, is it because circumcision affects um, the experience?
Does circumcision really affect the sensivity of the skin where it matters?
In an adverse fashion?

Is this how men really feel about circumcision?

Are there men who are pro-circumcision?
Why?
Speak up, gentlemen!

In particular, I would love to hear from a man who is his own control subject, so to speak.
That is, a man who had a circumcision as an adult.
What are the differences, if any?
Is all this hoo-ha about circumcision even necessary? Or is circumcision 'water off a duck's back', so to speak, and we are just getting our knickers in a twist about it?
Any regrets either way?

Did someone say 'cake'?

Here is the story of a young man. Let's call him 'Kurt'.

Kurt was Kut and it hurt: (Did I mention I am a fan of 'wortspiel'?)

This is Kurt shortly after birth. Isn't he cute?

In the debriefing just before I got shipped out of heaven in batch no. 532, we were told: You are being sent to two people who will love you the most throughout your stay on Earth.

I look forward to meeting these two.

Three weeks later...

 Um, something's not quite right. These two keep talking in hushed tones around me. My Dad keeps giving me these looks of pity, but the silver lining of sorts is that my Mom is dishing out more 'Bewbie juice' than I need. My friend Danny keeps saying what's not to like? But I dunno...I get the feeling something bad is gonna happen soon...

The next day...

Uh-oh...told ya. Get me out of here. GET ME OUTTA HERE!!!

Three days later...

 OK, so the debriefing was one big lie. I don't trust these two anymore. No sooner had I landed on their doorstep where the stork left me than they were already plotting to chop bits offa me.

This is love?

I am supposed to need this?

Can I pass?

Thirty years later...

 OK, so I met this great girl...on our first date she mentioned she was Jewish.
I thought: way to go Mom and Dad! I LOVE YOU!
But something bad's happened since then...
The girl won't take my calls anymore.

I had mentioned to her that I was Jewish too. She didn't believe me since I didn't have a clue where the nearest synagogue was.
I then said I would show her the evidence that I was Jewish in the only way that counts...

What's with these women?
Why can't just one of them be normal, and drama-free?

I mean...I went through all that pain 30 years ago...
I finally find a girl who might appreciate my 'covenant with God'...
And she won't even take a look?
What's with that?

Is Kurt's babyhood experience typical or not?

Would the men care to refine his story for me?

Whilst keeping it clean?

Granted, you may not remember much...

But do your best to explain the importance (or not), of circumcision to you.

Ladies, chime in if you have something to say.

Don't be shy. You are already in the locker room. (Again I apologise for taking you there).

:-)