Monday, January 9, 2012

MGTOW - good or bad for women?

There are three phrases that strike fear into the hearts of modern marriage-minded women.
'Marriage on the decline', 'MGTOW' (Men going their own way), 'Marriage strike'.

A woman's greatest fear is abandonment. Or worse, never to have been approached in the first place.
Feminism encourages women to hide this fear.
Some do it well.
But here-in lies the problem: a fear will always remain as a fear unless it is resolved.

A quirk of Nature results in the following observations:
A man does not need a woman. He is capable of being a solitary entity his whole life, and he won't care.
His work/passion/hobby is his primary focus.

A woman needs people around her. The most efficient way to increase the entourage who share her DNA is to team up with a man. So technically, a woman needs a man.

A man's greatest physical need is sexual fulfilment (according to Dr Kevin Lehman). A man's greatest social need is his freedom.
These two needs are in direct conflict with each other. Marriage (read: a woman) satisfies one at the expense of the other.
But in the old days, men often chose marriage and hoped for the best with the other need. Sometimes it worked out well.
Other times it did not.

Then feminism separated 'woman' from 'marriage'.

All of a sudden, a man could eat his cake and have it too. A win-win situation!
Being a logical being, he did.

A woman's natural reaction to MGTOW would be something like this:
"Oh no, don't go! Stay!"

Because MGTOW reduces the number of men in her 'parade'.
Because she is a good communicator and needs people around her to communicate with.
But it is a counterproductive reaction.

Because MGTOW is a natural part of manhood. It is a form of 'Initiation'.

In some cultures in the world, initiation practices are still encouraged. Men have their obligatory journey into the forest and women have their preparation rites for womanhood.
There are still remnants of the original deal in modern culture, but usually in a religious context, such as 'Bar Mitzvah' and 'Bat Mitzvah' and 'Confirmation'.

But in the real deal, a boy on the cusp of manhood  would be forcibly taken literally from his bed at night and dumped into dangerous terrain, usually by older men from the same village.

His mother and sisters would cry out, "Oh no, don't take him away" but to no avail.

Because the village elders knew that a man who had not been initiated was not a man.
He posed a risk to the whole village if he did not possess the skills of manhood. He might as well be one of the women, but without her function, either. So this man was useful to all concerned.

The women would protest, of course. But they knew thay had to let the boy go. Because, assuming he survived the rigors of initiation, he would come back a fully-fledged man, a useful member of society.
If he never came back, they would miss him. But he had not made the cut. It was a stigma for that family. They were better off in the long run without him.

There are many false imitations of initiation in today's society. Inner city gangs are a prime example.

Under feminism, many men lost their male 'elders'. Because he was taken away from them by a dominant matriarch. There was no-one to raid their homes in the middle of the night and yank them from their beds into the terrifying unknown, so necessary for the development of their sense of masculine self.

MGTOW might be one of the natural retorts to this male crisis: the lack of initiation.

The motivation for MGTOW in this present clime is certainly not for the purposes of benefiting women.

But in a roundabout way, it could be the best thing a man can do.
It could be the best demonstration of 'inner Game'.

Let the initiation begin.

The heroes will return to the village, with a lot to offer the village.
The women and children and of course the elders will be there to welcome them back to the fold.

The others will not come back.

Women only want heroes on their parade.


371 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 371 of 371
Anonymous said...

Spacetraveller said...

"NC,

:-)

Hey, a girl can dream, no?
Seriously, I don't think it can get much worse than it is now.
Can it???
I sure hope not!"

Oh yeah, depending on how you define 'worse', it can get a WHOLE LOT worse... for men or for women, or for men AND for women. Think about Communist China, where one child per couple is the legal limit, and abortion is forced on anyone violating that law. Think about the government continuing to expand its control over the process and legal liabilities of both marriage and parenthood. Someday, it may very well be possible for my grandchildren to look back at their childhood, and say,

"Remember Grandma and Grandpa? They could CHOOSE to have children, and didn't pay the government to raise their kids for them."

I won't even approach the possibilities in the dating/marriage world. Yes, Miss Spacetraveler, it can get a whole lot worse, you just need imagination to see it.

The Navy Corpsman

Anonymous said...

Heh... 201 comments. Think I better stop commenting on old posts, else your blog may blow up from overload.

Guess I'll see how the misogyny discussion is going.

The Navy Corpsman

Spacetraveller said...

@ Bear,

You're welcome :-)

"For sure, the mainstream media, the legal system and the governement would "protect" women from having a long, hard look in the mirror."

But Bear, it is not a protection at all. It is allowing women to self-destruct.

I wish more women will see that feminism is not a woman's friend at all. It is designed to hurt both women and men.
But on the surface, it is men who are the overt targets...
(I have long since discovered that women who hate men also at some level despise fellow-women)...

How can a sanctuary be made more 'Bear-friendly'?
Availability of flying fish? Pictures of other bears on the walls? Trees and shrubs in the vicinity?
You name it!
I am sure it can be fixed :-)

By the way, you didn't say...are you Polar or Grizzly?
Is the word 'Himalayan' a clue? Can I guess 'Polar' then?

@ NC and Bear,

My optimism on this matter is an essential and necessary part of my make-up. Whilst I am not desperate for marriage, I am perhaps close to it :-)
Remember that neither of you gentlemen needs marriage as much as I do.
But yes, there is a right way and a wrong way of persuading a man to commit. 'Man up, loser!' is definitely the wrong way, I am beginning to see. 'Supplicating über-nice' is another wrong way. I am trying to find the middle ground between those two extremes. Whilst I look for that, I at least get clear lessons on why not to do it the wrong way from my own and other people's experiences.
But I must say that whilst I am generally optimistic, especially for women younger than me, I really have lost hope for many who are older than me who are still single, because I can see (from what I read from men in the Manosphere) that these women have caused too much 'damage' to themselves and to everyone around them. It would take a massive miracle to reverse their fortunes...
And the question is, how big is my faith?
I would love to reply 'unlimited'. But...the other question is, does God want to be bothered with certain cases? It might not be as much a question of 'he can't' as 'he just won't'...

Lonely Himalayan Bear said...

@ ST,

"By the way, you didn't say...are you Polar or Grizzly?
Is the word 'Himalayan' a clue? Can I guess 'Polar' then?"

Neither polar nor grizzly. The Himalayan bear is a type in itself. http://www.bearsoftheworld.net/himalayan_black_bears.htm
I raised two cubs when I was a kid before my parents reckoned they had become too big and potentially dangerous to be kept as pets!

"How can a sanctuary be made more 'Bear-friendly'? Availability of flying fish? Pictures of other bears on the walls? Trees and shrubs in the vicinity?"

Lol! While there is nothing that can replicate the wilderness for the bear, this 'sanctuary' makes me less miserable than most others. In fact, I could develop a liking for it in the near future :-)

"But Bear, it is not a protection at all. It is allowing women to self-destruct."

True. Hence, my usage of the term in quotes.


@ NC and ST,

"Whilst I am not desperate for marriage, I am perhaps close to it :-)"

In the current social clime, I can understand why. As a reaction to institutionalised misandry, many men are so circumspect that it may become difficult for a marriage-minded woman to make true connection with a man who knows the game. And as a woman who has swallowed the red pill, I suppose that kool-aid drinking p*ssy-whipped pedestalising men would perhaps not appeal to your tastes.
Good on you in not settling for less than what you deserve!


"Yes, Miss Spacetraveler, it can get a whole lot worse, you just need imagination to see it."

Agreed! It CAN get a lot worse, but most likely the prevailing forces wouldn't LET it get to that. The reason is simply socio-economics.

From the establishment's point of view, a half-dead system that can milk millions of tax-payers' dollars is much better than a dead and buried and therefore unproductive social institution.
If all men wisen up to reject marriage en masse today, it'll have severe repercussions not just socially but also financially. Let's never forget the massive amounts of money that the divorce industry (and all its "sister" allies) makes in the West.
How long they can keep the "state-regulated happy monogamous marriage" farce going is the million dollar question.

Spacetraveller said...

Bear,

I really didn't know about other types of bear than polar or grizzly. Amazing what one can learn on a blog :-)

I am optimistic because I have to be. Or rather, I choose to be. But actually, even when all is burning around them, there are people who will still conduct their lives in a manner that will work for them. I want to be one of those people. 'Work' in this sense has to include marriage and children. I understand that for many men, that is no longer a reality or even a desirable outcome. Fair enough.
If part of the message of The Manosphere is for women to 'woman up', then I shall happily do my part. It is my goal anyway.
If the aim is for women to carry on with their bad selves and leave men to their MGTOW aspirations, then fine, I shall simply listen to what they have to say and engage men who do want to have what I want, which is a fulfilling relationship, which for me would have to be marriage. I think everyone's a winner, in this case!
Optimism is a necessity for someone like me. Without it, I am dead in the water...

Unknown said...

MGTOW - good or bad for women?

I believe ultimately it is good.
I would go so far as to say that MGTOW is a feminism that woman have failed to live up to. In fact it is the empowerment and independence sought by feminists granted by men.

Feminism like Christianity is only corrupted by it's adherents, practitioners and evangelists. The ideological popes and givers of the word.
Interestingly both preach redemption and neither offer it socially.
Many MGTOW are simply disenfranchised by excommunication. MGTOW is a solution to a social problem.

But only until we recognize that culture cannot be the default artificial intelligence.

The only problem with Christianity is Christians.
The only problem with feminism is women.

Spacetraveller said...

Welcome to The Sanctuary, Unknown!

You answer this question for me. Thank you.

But do you imply by your answer that feminists actually want the MGTOW movement?
If so, I would be surprised.
I think MGTOW was an accidental side effect of the feminist movement, one which feminists didn't see coming.
I think they would still want men keeping their end of the social contract.
I don't think feminists are'happy' with MGTOW. And of course, neither are non-feminists.
The former group are angry. The latter group are just saddened by it all.

For sure, nothing will change until women (as a group) change. And then even so, maybe things still won't change for a long while...
We may have to skip a generation or two.



Unknown said...

"But do you imply by your answer that feminists actually want the MGTOW movement?"

I would say that the more active feminists do. But most feminists are token feminists. Like most Christians are token Christians.

"an accidental side effect of the feminist movement"

I would say unintended rather than accidental or misdirected intent or selfish intent or arrogant intent. But not accidental.

"they would still want men keeping their end of the social contract"

That contract you refer to exists in the minds of those with a vested interest in it. There is no longer a social contract between men and women which I think is pretty obvious.

"I don't think feminists are'happy' with MGTOW. And of course, neither are non-feminists."

I think you will find,as many men are finding that any battle in the future will be with the law and legislators. For the most part the women that choose to matter will be fighting those same legislators, the rest of them simply won't matter. It will get much much worse before any positive change.

Many men in various mens groups MGTOW, MRA, PUA, GAMERS, warn about the olive branch from women as a method to invigorate legal predation on men. These groups are only a veneer of what's underneath.

I think if you take a look you will find that what we call feminism has broken down every social barrier to a final division between women and men. Family, politics and religion are now divided. Even racism has taken a back seat to the gender divide. Even gay and transgender men are picking sides. Everyone is affected.What we choose to do as people will be interesting to see.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Unknown,

I think your last paragraph was spot on.

Feminism was a 'divide and conquer' strategy.
And it worked.

Now men and women hate each other. Bravo Feminism.

Anonymous said...

I am an ex mgtow, or whatever stupid acromyn theu go by. Seriosuly, these are just men who have no game. Ocassionally I fail to get pussy which is normal, not every girl wants dick but these pathetic faggots are just making excuses as to why they don't get pussy. It's called david deangelo. You can't get girls by playing video games all day, you are pathetic if you do. I became bitter because some bitch left me, i admit, but i still love to stick my penis in some nice warm vagina.

MGTOW banned me because i was incoherent; it leads me to believe that the mgtow movement is being orchestrated by women. No man would ever ban a member for such simple disagreements.

Don't be fooled mgtows, women are moderating your forum.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Aononymous 2 6:11 AM,

Language, language...!
Some might consider your post a little too crude for their tastes.

How so that the MGTOW movement is being orchestrated by women?
The commenter just previous to you suggests that feminism may have created the MGTOW as an unintended 'side effect', but it seems you go one step further and suggest that this is a deliberate act. You might be right: afterall, this could all have been in the 'plan' all along...
I can see only one motive for the whole feminist movement, and that was to destroy family/marriage and the naturally cordial relationships between men and women.

I do love a conspiracy theory myself, but I have to say, sometimes we really have no evidence to back up our suspicions, do we...

May I ask - what changed your mind about MGTOW?
Did you just meet a nice girl, and all was right with the world again :-)?
Or was it just a change of heart that came from within yourself with no external influence?
Or was it really just a sexual thing?
(And it would help to know your age, I guess, with respect to this possible reason lol).

Would you marry if the right girl came along? Or would you never marry despite no longer identifying with the MGTOW movement?

Lonely Himalayan Bear said...

To the anonymous person that posted on 1st October,

Your comment indicates an assessment of MGTOW purely based on the online forum existing by that name. You speak about your personal grievances; of how the forum banned you unjustly, in your opinion.
"it leads me to believe that the mgtow movement is being orchestrated by women. No man would ever ban a member for such simple disagreements."
I fail to see a logical connect there, to be honest. Forum rules can be benign in some sites and severe in others, and your attempts at the cause-effect explanation come across as a poorly reasoned argument. Not to mention, somewhat intellectually dishonest.

Be that as it may, the MGTOW online forum is just that - a virtual medium where some MGTOWs find a platform to interact. I have been a forum member for only 3 months now and don't know enough to comment on its inner mechanisms. My experience so far has been a positive one.

Let me now offer my two cents on MGTOW.

Primarily, the acronym MGTOW represents a conscious lifestyle choice by men; something much broader than a single online forum. It is erroneous to assume that the global "movement" can be gauged (whether positively or negatively) by a single virtual medium you stumbled upon.

Secondly, the MGTOW is not a "movement" as you describe. There are no party manifestos I received when I decided to go my own way. It's a lifestyle choice and a lot of men around the world are increasingly embracing the idea. This phenomenon is certainly not limited to the Anglosphere or the USA, as a lot of people simplistically assume. Nor are all related discussions held in English, as you may well appreciate :-)

Many adult males of a sane mental disposition come to this decision (of GTOW), based on their experiences and a rational assessment of socio-political dynamics. A lot of MGTOW do not even know what the acronym stands for, yet have been going their own way for a long time.

Your inference about the supposed romantic ineptness of MGTOWs (a few online members of a single forum being your rich sample size) also seems severely logic-deficient. For starters, you don't know them personally and more importantly, a man is perfectly capable of making a logical-decision of GHOW without any personal romantic setbacks.

"Seriosuly, these are just men who have no game. Ocassionally I fail to get pussy which is normal, not every girl wants dick but these pathetic faggots are just making excuses as to why they don't get pussy."
What did you expect as a rebuttal? It seems to me that you are inviting some MGHOW to "prove" how good their game with women is so that they are exempted from being "pathetic", according to your definition. Let me spell it out clearly. It's not a "My Daddy strongest" competition going on here and there are no lollipops for the winner. Last time I played such a game was a couple of decades back as a five-year old :-)

Try to dissociate the person (you/I/Mr.X) from the phenomena (social dynamics/evolutionary female biology/ Marriage 2.0) and it might be possible to arrive at an objective evaluation. Good luck!


Sincerely,
A south Asian MGHOW

Anonymous said...

You appear to think of this as some form of "temporary imbalance" that we men have to be hero enough to get through and fix. Somehow.

Can you even remotely tell me what that would look like?

Initiation. And the prize at the other end is this. I laugh. You can couch it in whatever high minded sounding BS you want. Shaming's still shaming.

Your turn.

Women created this. They went well out of their way to make it a fool's errand for a man to try to fix it. The cost / benefit was already extremely tenuous under the traditional model.

Now it's your gender's turn to be "initiated".

A few of you will survive it. Most won't. To them awaits an empty apartment full of cats and a diminishing pool of government handouts.

Shrug.

Anonymous said...

Miss us?

MISS US?

You don't miss us. You're unwilling to change. The initial line aobut "no one will miss us" is claoesr to the truth of how you really feel. You throw that in there as your dash of lemon juice into a perceived paper cut. It's not working.

What we want you to do:

Written petitions to change the laws

Vote for politicians that are anti-female biased laws, even if that makes your life suck

Socially ostracize women among you that are anti-male dykes following the Hillary model or that are sluts

Reduce your standard of living by stopping the practice of mistaking wants for needs. Vote on this with your wallet. You spend 80% of the money that gets spent in this country. It will become obvious this is working when people no longer can turn a profit in selling $50,000 automobiles, ridiculous clothing, a trillion brands of make-up, etc. Also when the debt to income statistics go down to reasonable levels.

Keep publishing blogs. Focus on what YOU can do to make things better, not on what MEN can do or why they are the way they are. YOU KNOW DAMN WELL WHY. You have no intention of seriously facing this.

I am telling you right now.

You are not "bargaining" your way out of this one.

Let me repeat that. You will never. Ever. Bargain your way out of this one.

You will fix it.

You know damn well what that means and you don't want to face it. Picture a world without us. Now find a way not to die in it, and get rid of those among you that would hamper those efforts.

You've got a lot of cleaning up to do. And a lot of internal in-fighting to win. Get to it.

Anonymous said...

It's not "walking out on Feminism" to simply say "I'm monogamous, now pay me".

If men did not give a shit would they be here posting comments? Obviously they give a shit. Equally obviously you're in the "bargaining" stage of denial.

We don't give THAT much of a shit.

You must disarm all the weapons you have pointed at us. Your solidarity is NO LONGER your friend. Feminism was big on "solidarity" and "herd mentality". You'd fuck over a guy calling him a sickening loser or pervert in favor of some drugged up slut that meant nothing to you simply in the name of "solidarity".

That goes first. Not just in words. The women that don't make the cut are to be ostracized, spoken out against, made the target of prejudice dare I even say. To the point that if they were on a jury trial and they were some druggie slut that ran over their boyfriend of the month with a car, the jury would waste not one second in convicting them to life in prison. You know, like how it presently is for average MEN. None of this "two months and anger management" horseshit. Lindsay Lohan sould be doing 15 years at present for all the shit she's pulled. Kidnapping. Attepmted manslaughter. Reckless driving under the influence. Instead it's all this world's smallest violin shit. The sympathy for her never stops.

And frankly you can call that unfair but is it ill-deserved? Nothing modifies behavoir like consequences.

To reject feminism means to turn out those among you that are the shitbirds. Permanently. To go through and clean house. And to give up the unjust laws that act in your favor.

I'm not even getting started.

You'll never give up unjust laws that act in your favor. You want the ability to send some scary man to prison because he slapped you in an argument after you hit him. Good fucking luck getting you to give that up.

Oh wait how about abortion? If you can opt to kill my baby, guess what? I can opt not to pay you for 18 years for yours. Yes I know it's "ours". It's high time YOU acted like it's "ours".

Are you beginning to get the picture?

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous (I assume the last 3 posts or so are from the same person),

I am afraid you are preaching to the choir!
Most of the ladies here (including myself) are have spent a long time (perhaps even a lifetime for some) being sickened by what is going on around us.
Being female does not necessarily make us automatically part of the problem, but I accept that this is an inevitable conclusion to come to.

I shall address one of your points which I think is an important one.

You suggest that women who care should seek to change the law.

If you have read some of the posts on this blog you would have come to the conclusion (as I have) that this is not actually practically possible and some MEN here have even already said that this is too little too late and won't change anything.

Women who are doing things the right way (not being on the carousel, being good wives and mothers to the good men and children in their lives) are a minority. Even I (who has always been an eternal optimist) has finally reached this conclusion.

Even if they had the time and resources to club together and tried to fight the big feminist machine that is engulfing us all, they would unfortunately not succeed. Their voice is just too tiny at the moment. These women need to increase their numbers first. To this end, changing minds is a better strategy than getting David to fight Goliath right now.

Some women HAVE tried. Someone in a post somewhere on this blog mentioned a Catholic woman who has been tirelessly fighting the frivolous divoce laws (that allowed her husband to divorce her against her consent), for example. You might say (and I really hope you won't) that she is only fighting this law because it has affected HER adversely. Well, most men who want these same laws to change are doing it for this same reason. People are people. At the end of the day we all want the same things. The peaceful and just among us want intact families. This woman is in the same position as many wronged husbands and fathers.

The point is, individual men and women have to take stock of their own lives. We came to this conclusion on many of the posts here. Read them. Some of the comments are from great people who continue to educate me, with their wisdom and insight.

Spacetraveller said...


As to shaming other women, again if you have read a lot of my posts, you will have seen why I now think it is ineffective.

I am now more interested in helping women (who are not too damaged by their own pasts) to see that certain lifestyle choices are worse than others, not just for themselves but for everyone else near or far.

About the use of the word 'initiation', I have already been corrected for its use a long time ago. Please don't chastise me again for a slip-up I have already apologised for :-)

Whatever is the best word to describe how I feel about MGTOW, 'temporary' won't cover it.

I know now that it is a lifestyle choice of many men, and I respect that.

I also know that there are men who would rather not take this route but who have been 'forced' into it. It is these men that I have in mind when I 'speak' to feral women. Because I know that if women as a whole become worth dating and marrying, these particular men will date and marry them.
All the while, respecting those men who won't change their minds about MGTOW whatever changes women as a whole make.
I do know that 'women started it'. Feminism may not have its earliest origins in women, but it was certainly propagated by women. I know that. Which is why I repeat the mantra 'As women go, so does society' (not my mantra, by the way - someone else coined it, and I happen to like it, because it is true).
Those men WILL be missed by me and women like me who are rooting for men in general (not for any other reason other than we like men).

Strangely enough, these women I speak of are not usually the manless, bitter, cat-loving women you speak of. Even if these women are single forever, they still like and adore men.

I wish there would be more of this category of women, for sure.
As I am sure, would you.

If my rambling rants on this blog help to increase the numbers of this type of woman, I would be very pleased.

If not, well, at least I had a good run at addressing interesting topics with some very bright and knowledgable people.

Anonymous said...

Something about the whole men got more feminine, what would Chris say to that...?

Do you not get it.

You are the one asking US back.

If you don't WANT us back, meh. You haven't wanted us as US for like ever anyway. My natural urges can be satisfied for $300. Yours can't. Your natural urge is for security.

As far as too herculean of a task to engage the old herd... boo hoo hoo. So was World War 2, Vietnam, the Old West, name it.

Guess it's going to suck to be you for a while then.

Anonymous said...

"The same thing happened to a few women around 50 years ago. They thought 'damn those men, we'll make 'em pay for (insert grievance of choice).
Now we are all paying for their bitterness."

All?

WE are paying for their bitterness. Not you. You don't know what paying is.

Yet.

So, yeah, unless YOU as a gender unwind these laws and give us a reason to care, welcome to the flip side of the pendulum. It's just warming up and you're already squirming, eh?

Sooner or later that "herculean task" is going to look like a better option to you all.

Capitulation in the name of "fairness"? I don't bloody think so.

Welcome to how history works.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

"You are the one asking US back."

Yes, I agree. The nature of womanhood is indeed to want men around. So it does make sense that women ask men 'back', as you say.

But...of course asking is a failing strategy. Women should entice men back (not in any sort of manipulative, 'formula' kind of way, but by simply being worthy women), such that men want to come back without being asked. I think this is how it works :-)

My theme is simply this:
If men want to come where there are women that please them, great! They are VERY welcome!
But if men choose to stay away, no worries.
The door is always open however.
This relatively new way of thinking for me, is the closest I will ever come to 'Outcome Independence', something that I always thought women in general (including myself) were incapable of (no insult to any woman or myself!). I just thought it was not part of the 'female package' as it were. But I find it can be, if a woman 'trains' herself thus.

So my not wishing to 'change the mind' of any MGTOW is not to say that he is 'not wanted'. It is more of a 'do as you wish' thing. Not meant as a 'rejection' at all. It is simply a recognition that everyone has their own choice to make in life. If that is their choice, so be it! It is very much a valid choice, same as another's to get married, go into religious life, or whatever. I respect all choices.

"As far as too herculean of a task to engage the old herd... boo hoo hoo. So was World War 2, Vietnam, the Old West, name it."

Well, you may have a valid point here.
But I wonder if you misunderstood my meaning. Note that I did not say it was 'too difficult' or that the herd should not be engaged. I don't think the people who suggested that it was a waste of time were saying that. They were simply saying that it is too ineffective to shame them.
And I am gradually coming round to see what they mean...
But if you feel that it is a job worth taking on, then you are as optimistic as I was!
Which is a good thing. I do share your optimisim somewhat, but I think I have found a better way for me to deal with the problem at hand. It is just not by 'shaming' anyone.
Time will tell.

I am pretty sure your natural urges can be satisfied for much less than $300. In fact the problem is that a few men's natural urges are being satisfied for free these days, leaving nothing but crumbs for the majority of men. This is part of the problem, as outlined on Manosphere sites.

This is a self-perpetuating problem, as I am sure you would agree.

I must say, you are however not contributing to this problem at all, if you are paying $300 to have your needs satisfied (not suggesting that you do, I am just supposing here). This is because you would be engaging a woman (erm, a 'professional satisfier of natural male urges') who is already out of the running for marriage. So you are not snatching a prime candidate away from your brother (who may one day wish to marry this woman)'s grasp.
The problem is the women who allow themselves to be 'taken out of contention' when young, and then demand to be considered for marriage when 'used up'.
Not MY critique: every Mansophere blog talks of this. And I see their point. As do you evidently.


Spacetraveller said...


PS: I find nothing wrong in suggesting that we are all paying for the sins of feminism.
Even the feminists themselves are paying for their sins too (but we don't care much about their pain, because it is self-inflicted).
At least 3 generations of men and women have been paying the price.
Yes, they suffer in different ways, but suffer they both do. From their infancy, as children born into a feminist world.
I don't blame you for seeing only the pain from the male side. Heck, from time to time even I as a woman I can ONLY see the pain from the male side.
But I am glad that I can also see the pain from the female side.
Let's not forget that there are of course many innocent female victims of the degrading SMP. Those women who never got themselves embroiled in feminist thinking who are overlooked by men too busy enjoying the spoils of feminism, i.e. getting the goods 'for free'.

Yes, I agree these women are not your problem.
But you cannot deny their existence.
Their pain is as real and undeserved as yours. And I will not leave them out of my discussion, I'm afraid.
It is the imperative of any male Manosphere blogger to ignore this small group of women.
I on the other hand flatly decline to do so on principle. Sorry if that offends.

Back to the majority of women who are behaving badly, I see of course that repeating failing trends in individual lives only compounds the probelm. If you witness your mother divorce-rape your father and you decide to do the same to your husband, having seen the pain it caused your father, then you are in fact a worse offender than your mother, because one could argue that your mother had no idea of the pain her actions caused.

Which is why I made the assertion that only by changing individual mindsets will this debacle be over. It might not solve the problem completely (in any case not anytime soon) but it is a good place to start, I think.

Shaming people just turns them off and delays the process, in my humble opinion.
Why not show them that they are causing pain? Why not allow them to be introspective about their choices?
Believe me, I tried the shaming thing. It ddn't work.
And by Einstein's definition of insanity, it would have been insane of me to keep doing that.
So now I have a different strategy.

Do let me know however if the shaming technique does work for you. I would be interested to know. Perhaps you may have a better way of executing that? In which case, I'd be more than happy to 'watch and learn' from you.

"Capitulation in the name of "fairness"?"

I hope I have explained in a clear manner above that it is not at all about fairness and it is not even capitulation. It is about finding a better (i.e.effective) way of dealing with the problem at hand.

We have dealt with this topic at length on this blog, and (I hope) I have summarised the conclusions/findings for you in an adequate manner.



Anonymous said...

"By that, I mean that it (MGTOW) IS what is happening everywhere I look. It's not hard to see. I just did not know what it was called. So I found out its name when I went looking for anwers.

By "we", I mean everyone, but primarily women (and the people in their 'camps' - their mothers, fathers, brothers, friends, uncles, great-aunts, colleagues).

So it is a widespread 'problem', yes.

Yes, MGTOW is a problem for women, whether they have been deemed to have cause it or not.

Abandonment IS a woman's greatest fear, whether each individual woman admits it or not."

Funny how y'all keep making it happen then.

To simplify this:

Bitching / cheating / denigrading / slutting around / raising the legal costs of a relationship to a completely insane level while simultaneously lowering or eradicating the benefits...

Sounds like a great way to avoid abandonment.

Sarcasm.

Y'all got some work to do, dontcha?


"About solutions, I do not purport to have any. I set out to learn, engage with the players of the game (and therefore I felt the need to define the categories of the players in the following post) and take it from there.
We will have to work out the solution together, all of us. At least those who want to.
I can only however engage with those who DO want to engage with me. In that sense, even though I have achieved at least some dialogue with some MGTOW (and that's a good thing, thanks guys!) some have categorically stated they're gone for good and 'ain't coming back', ever).
So these men will necessarily and by default, have to be excluded from the solution, because the goal is to improve things between men ansd women, which has to mean that some come back to 'the village'.

Afterall, the problem is not sloved if nothing's changed.

Am I making sense?"

No, you're making threats.

It's not your fault, you're brainwashed.

Let me be crystal clear.

Oh noes, you're going to exclude the ones that won't meet you half way (aka meet you 7/8ths of the way).

Exclude away. We. Don't. Care.

Again. Someone's asking for something in this picture. It ain't us. You increasingly sound like a kid up past bedtime trying to bargain their way into more cookies.

To us, it's like being a professional auto mechanic and some rank amateur stepping in to your shop having watched a few episodes of Top Gear and offering to help fixing cars.

I'm afraid you're going to have to actually bring somethiung to the table first.

Go amongst yourselves and go get your shit together.

Anonymous said...

"A lot of men here say they don't want reformed 'not so nice' girls. So even if every woman turned into an angel tonight, it seems it might not do any good?"

I could live with that.

That's not the problem.

The problem is that AT PRESENT we dare not cut them any slack. They are a bad risk. Well, most everything is, but if you're going to take a bad risk, are you going to take it with someone who has already proven to be an even worse risk?

Would you get with an ex-meth addict man if he said he wa "really sorry that he made a big mistake"? Probably not, if you were sane.

Now how about the same ex-meth addict that went the extra mile and volunteered with charities, got a college degree, etc, ant it's been 10 years since he touched the stuff?

Probably... right? Might not go out of your way to seek him out but if he was there and you happened to get attracted to him it would probably be ok, right?

Similar.

The thing is, we want proof. You can learn from comments but after you learn you are going to have to go forth and deal with it. As a group, you're going to have to police yourselves and get some of this egregious legal shit reversed. No politician's gonna listen to us. Our strategy in that regard is to let it implode, go through the hell that implies, and attempt to rebuild on the other side. Dicey proposition at best.

This means you are going to have to actively act against what you perceive to be your own best interests, with no guarantee of success.

You see why I'm not optimistic.

It's either that or a subset of you are going to have to "come out to meet us" also known as forsake this society and it's values and it's rampant consumerism and let it all go to hell.

I have slightly more hope of that happening in small isolated cases. On the other hand it's going to be like drug withdrawals for most of you.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

"You increasingly sound like a kid up past bedtime trying to bargain their way into more cookies."

and

"To us, it's like being a professional auto mechanic and some rank amateur stepping in to your shop having watched a few episodes of Top Gear and offering to help fixing cars."

It is regrettable that you have this image if me or indeed of women (I am not sure which it is).
But anyhow, the reason it is regrettable is that it tells me something important.

It tells me that you have disqualified me from contributing anything useful to our discussion.

Let me tell you why.

Whenever an analogy such as this is made, i.e. the other participant is deemed a 'child' or 'doesn't know what they are talking about', it immediately communicates to that other party that their views are invalid somehow. A child cannot have a meaningful conversation with an adult, in the way that another adult could.

So for me, this is an important development in this conversation.

I am merely observing the dynamics here. This is not a criticism as such, although it probably should be.

If I may say so, this perception of me by you is not helpful. Neither is it warranted.

I am here to discuss some very serious and important issues in the SMP.
The very fact that you are here commenting is testament to its seriousness.

To 'demote' me to the ranks of childhood is to diminish the tone of the discussion somewhat.

My views may differ from yours, but they are certainly not childish views.
I hope that much is clear to you.

I get that you are not exactly thrilled by current events. I can sense that. Neither am I, if that helps.
You and I wouldn't be the only one, as you can see above. This has been an emotive thread for all of us, whatever our station in life.

You are always welcome to comment, as everyone else who chooses to do so here. But be mindful of certain insinuations which may be inaccurate and contribute nothing to the discussion. Especially if you choose to address other commenters.
Please.


Anonymous said...

"I don't feel I have any right to 'judge' anyone, no matter how much their thinking deviates from mine. Call them out on their behaviour, yes, but I am not into public shaming per se.
('Let he without sin cast the first stone' and all that...)"

Nice to know you think you have infinite resources.

Those resources were put there by men that died and did "horrendous things" from your pserpective in order to give you the freedom of abdication of hard choices.

The Old Testament is the way it is for a reason. Try starving in the desert for 2 generations and being beset by people out for your destruction and we'll see how much sense being "non-judgemental" makes.

I'm saying that it's a luxury item.

I'm saying that basing your entire life philosophy on it is incorrect because it is not a "universal truth" that holds in all situations.

If you choose to be non-jusgemental right now that's fine, realize it does come at a cost however. Right now that cost appears to be negligible. It isn't. It's just being extracted very very slowly and imperceptibly.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

"The problem is that AT PRESENT we dare not cut them any slack. They are a bad risk."

Yes, they are a bad risk. I am more in your line of thinking than you think I am.

I would NEVER advise a man to get with such a woman. Unless there is a compelling reason that he feels overrides everything else. And if he is absolutely sure that she is well and truly reformed.

And no, I wouldn't seek out a 'meth-head' and if I had ever met one I would have had to do a lot of soul-searching to come to some sort of conclusion as to whether I could live with his (past) addiction.
By the way, one of my very recent posts discusses my views on addiction (Grounds for divorce?).
So if I were to take a wild guess, after all that soul-searching, my answer would most likely still be a stern 'no thanks'.

"This means you are going to have to actively act against what you perceive to be your own best interests, with no guarantee of success."

Again agreed. Isn't it clear to you that this is my aim too?

I DO see why you are not optimistic. It is depressing for men these days. I do acknowledge that it is hard to be a man in a world where women neither respect nor cherish you.

Due to the fact that this is the fate of a great number of men, I have a particular sympathy for men in general.
Why do you think I am here?
I am about as passionate about this as you are!

"It's either that or a subset of you are going to have to "come out to meet us" also known as forsake this society and it's values and it's rampant consumerism and let it all go to hell."

My very first statement to you was that you were preaching to the choir.

Many of the women who regularly comment here already feel this way. Which is precisely why they comment here.

At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum: Have you actually read any other posts on this blog other than this one?

To understand better what we are about here, maybe you should.
I think it would help...

Spacetraveller said...

"I'm saying that it's a luxury item.

I'm saying that basing your entire life philosophy on it is incorrect because it is not a "universal truth" that holds in all situations.

If you choose to be non-jusgemental right now that's fine, realize it does come at a cost however. Right now that cost appears to be negligible. It isn't. It's just being extracted very very slowly and imperceptibly."


Actually, what you say here makes a lot of sense to me.
I did in fact see things the way you do now, when I was outraged by a particular male relative's fate at the hands of a 'not so nice' woman.

But now that I have calmed down, I no longer hold these views.

I accept your views however, and will never judge you either (heh!) for holding them.

I think it is very much a situational thing. I know from my own experiences of these things that I am least likely to be 'charitable' when I am feeling too close to the pain.

So I 'get it'.

But I prefer where I am now on the spectrum. It works for me. Right now.
Granted, it is a luxury I may not get to enjoy forever.

It is a risk I shall have to take.


just visiting said...

Blogger ate my comment, so Ill try this again. Since most hard core sluts are cluster b types and the like, go ahead and shame all you want. They'll love the attention,good or bad. Narcissistic supply. If you want to feed a narcissist her feel good drug, go for it. I've got better things to do with my time.

Better to focus on the non narcissistic types. They might not be carousellers, but could still be making destructive choices. Since you can appeal to the concious of such people, shame doesn't need to enter into the picture. In fact shame produces damaged people and damaged people do feked up things. We have enough of those around. And yes, shame was used in previous generations. It also created all kinds of repressed issues. I think that we would like to create a married lady in the parlour and an unrepressesd woman in the bedroom, no? Then we have to be very careful about sexual shaming. As a mother of sons, I was careful about such things as well. I think that boys of modern generations have had that done too them, and I wasn't going to continue the trend.

As for changing laws

change the culture and the laws will change. Even if our small minority changed the laws now, there's no pressure for a judge to use them as intended, if at all. Consider that there are anti homosexual laws on the books still, but there isn't a judge in this cultural climate who would use them. Change the culture and the rest will follow. And the internet is a big part of that. Blogs are a big part of that.

Spacetraveller said...

JV,

You have this way of elaborating on things I so want to express but lack the right vocabulary to!

Thank you for showing me exactly why shaming sluts doesn't work.

The question one has to ask is, 'Why?'.

Why are they sluts in the first place?
Somewhere in your comment is already the answer to this question.
Shame is already involved somehow.

Repeating the shame element is not the best solution. Ever.

By the way, I really enjoyed your recommendation 'Without love'.
So nice to see Tracy and Hepburn in lead roles together, especially so as they were so young compared to when they were in 'Guess who is coming to dinner!'.

And yes, I could see how masculinity of the men and the femininity of the women shone through. Beautiful to see :-)

Manu said...

This is most civil and constructive discussion of MGTOW I've ever seen outside the manosphere. Really great!

I liked your blog post, it is full of insight. But as has been noted, you are wrong about the initiation metaphor.

As a MGHOW in his mid thirties, I'm profoundly happy with my status, I deeply enjoy my job, my hobbies (several of which I have taken to a professional level) and my spare time. I'm in really great shape and, while not spectacular, I'm fair to look upon; not at all the bitter ugly loser stereotype. Moreover, I can afford being a nice guy, because I enjoy it, and because I'm positively interested in "finishing last".

Before GMOW, I would compromise huge amounts of free time, money, attention and thought with (for me) meaningless social compromises. Men are drawn to that out of interest in women. What you call "the village" is just the consumerist, socially trivial world women cherish: we men do not belong there, and only enter when promised sex, support and a family.

Today, most women are not that supporting nor family oriented (bare sex you can get elsewhere), which added to government interference, causes many of us not to see the point of living in femville. It's a distracting, dull and expensive haunt.

BTW, I feel compassion for many of my female acquaintances. Being a nice guy, I have no problem volunteering as listener, and the lethany of dependence on others, the horror of being alone, the extremes they will go to get any relationship are simply apalling.

It's good to be a man. And it's great being a MGHOW.

Spacetraveller said...

Manu,

Thank you and welcome to The Sanctuary!

"...we men do not belong there, and only enter when promised sex, support and a family."

Yes. Totally agree.
Here's the thing: This socially trivial feminine world you mention has always existed. But it wasn't so much 'in our faces' as it has become these days.
You gentlemen are right (I am afraid to admit): this world has become so overly feminised that it has become unpalatable to you.

So I do not blame you guys for turning your backs on society. I really don't.

Let me tell you a funny story. I just recently watched the film 'The Hobbit'.
It suddenly struck me that it is virtually an all-male cast. There is only one female character in this film. I remember thinking how odd this was...
Because I am so used to seeing women portrayed in everything, such that it is artificially blown out of proportion. So I was so unused to seeing a film with only men in it.
Now I can see how dangerous for children (male ones especially) to be growing up in an all-female world.
(I happen to think that an all-male world is equally unhealthy).


I have a ton of respect for the men who will still do the right thing even if they are not 'rewarded' for it. The men (like you) who will still go out and work hard, even if they know that half their earnings will go into funding 'female' pursuits eg. welfare for single (unmarried) mothers...
And of course I also respect the super women who may never get the chance to marry, no matter how great they are, because we are where we are...and who will continue to soldier on doing the good that they do, doing their jobs well, looking after people who are less fortunate than they are, maintaining that oh so important nurturing role in society even if it is not for their own children...

I am glad you are content with your life. Amen to that.

I presume your female acquaintances that you feel empathy for are indeed good people, which is why you feel for them.
And indeed you may also feel empathy for the good men who really do want good wives and simply cannot find them anywhere.
Those men are in my thoughts and prayers too. I feel for them in the way you feel for your female friends.

Anonymous said...

HI Spacetraveller,

Read your blog entry on MGTOW from last year with great interest. I semi self identify as being MGTOW, but for me its more because I just never felt wanted or seen evidence of being desired as a man. I'm not alone on this front... check out this Reddit thread. Lots of guys on there just never feel that they have been desirable to the ladies. So after a while, I just decided to stop trying... I'm also not a big initiator which doesn't help matters, but if I'd say any solid evidence back in the day a women was interested, I'm confident I would have gone for her.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/yx20t/when_did_you_first_realize_women_saw_you_as_a/


Then I became more educated on women over the last few years, became familiar with just how badly our legal system is stacked against us and really am unsure if the risks out way the potential benefits. Its also difficult to realize the small odds of finding a decent marriageable women in today's society. Women who have gone around the cock carousel are by no means attractive to me and would be an instant rejection, same with bitchy and entitlement.

Would I come back to the town - who knows. There has to be something worth while to come back to... I'm just not seeing it now. Lot of stuff needs to be fixed. One thing I'm firm on is never getting married - its a meaningless gesture these days.

Rorak

Spacetraveller said...

Hello Rorak!

Good of you to comment. Welcome!

I read that Reddit thread. What I noticed is the many men there who kept saying (as you mention in your comment) that women did not show interest in them.

I have to say, I confess that I can't really say I have experienced the same thing in my own life.
I could however mention that I do have some inkling, but not to the same scale as you, obviously, given that I am a woman, and because of this fact alone, I am bound to have got more 'offers' than you, as a man, no matter how attractive a man you are.

You and I both know that there is a myriad of reasons a person will get rejected for sex or marriage. There is a good debate going on right now on TPM on the topic of male height for example. There are also factors like weight, race, religion, social class, job status, smoking status, even medical history - you name it.

But I wonder - is this a feature or a bug?

I suspect it is a feature. It is perhaps acceptable that dating is hard, but surely it should NOT be a mission impossible to find a partner in life. But this is what we now have - a mammoth task to even get a date, for most people, except for the very 'lucky' or the least choosy among us.
Those in the middle have a hard time of it.

In the last year, my eyes have been opened to the nuances of the SMP in ways I could never have imagined.

I can now see why many men don't want to get married. I also see why many women don't want to marry either, or who want to get married but won't get a chance to.

It is regrettable, yes.
But what can one do?

fequalma said...

This thing is still going a year later.

Question for ST.

Are you ready? Ready for the reckoning?

Modern, industrialized societies have never before seen the demographic challenge that will be upon us in 10 short years.

Just 10. Mark it down. 2020 and onward....western civilization will enter accelerated decline.

Think I'm kidding? Just wait. Not only will there be more pensioners, for every working man, but there will be a ton more sad, old, single women who have nothing to look forward to in their "golden years".

I don't know if you find any peace in this discussion, but you got one thing right. Men don't need marriage. Women do.

And the reckoning for all the cunty old women who used men, used society, got the government to pass laws that enabled them to succeed at men's expense, will be upon us in 10 short years. Growing old is a terrifying experience....all these "strong independent women" will be in for a surprise.

Please excuse my schadenfreude.

I'm yet another 25 year old MGHOW. I don't spend money, avoid debt like the plague, don't salivate after the latest consumer goods and toys...and I'm not going to be tied down by debt, property, or women.

I might be a different shade or taste of "bitter" than the other MGTOW that have commented thus far.

I look forward to the downfall of society. I want to watch this corrupt world burn. I rather be on top of a mountain of ash, than under a corrupt mountain of debt, and lies.

Its not secret that most MGTOW are misogynists. They try their best to link every random development to evil feminists. Men are not blameless. The men who came before me, the "baby boomers", are responsible for ensuring that their children will have a lower standard of living than them.

Internet MGTOW are severely myopic. Feminists are just "useful idiots". Men control all the money and power, and the corrupt boomer men raped and pillaged the institutions of money and power. They took more than they deserve, and have bankrupted the future generations.

Can't blame me for looking out for myself. I don't owe society shit. Society has failed me, and I don't particularly care for its well being.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Fequalma,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

"This thing is still going a year later."

It's like the gift that keeps giving.
Not surprised though - it is an important issue.

I think you are probably the first man here to comment on the role of men in this descent to hell we have all become so familiar with.

Whilst I tend to concentrate on the sins of women (including myself of course), it must not be forgoten that men have *some* role to play. Kudos to you for mentioning it.
And yes, the Boomers have a lot to answer for, indeed!

Hm, I have a differing view on the endpoint of 'the decline' from you. Whilst I share your fears about the economic and social fallout, I think, in the end, there will be a peaceful 'resolution' of sorts, as I delineate in the post of the same name.

We will all make our peace with God somehow, in a personal and intimate way. Not to say that we will all be given a free pass, though. But each person will indeed have a reckoning to perform with the ultimate judge...

Perhaps I am thinking 'biblical' here, and you are referring to the physical world...
So there is room for both theories?

I agree with you that things are looking pretty ugly. Since I wrote this post, I have learned a lot through the eyes of men in The Manosphere. And now I think I see what you see. (It takes a while for one to see things 'from the other side', so for me, yes it has been a year-long journey...).

About 'schadenfreude', I don't blame you.
For 2 reasons:

1. You are perhaps on the receiving end of something I will never experience. The ill-effects of feminism and 'post-modernism' are felt differently by men and women. The effects on me and other women are perceived to be bad enough (by us).
But I can also see now that the effect on men is devastating.
I will never experience what you experience. So I cannot begrudge you your 'schadenfreude'.

2. In general, a woman really cannot 'enjoy the decline' anyway. It goes against our Nature. The realm of marriage, babies, homelife, etc. are our world (even if we have messed it up royally).

So I am quite incapable of rejoicing in its destruction.

I might get fleeting tendencies to (like you do) 'see the village burn down', but this is always short-lived in my case.
One might call it cyclical.

:-)

I tell you something though - I don't consider 'the village' my village anymore. I don't like 'the village', and I am prepared to leave it (burning or not) in the company of a few trusted, beloved companions and go live in a new village with new (actually, very old ) rules.

I don't like the misandric laws any more than you do, so I won't be subject to them. But that is a personal issue.

"Its not secret that most MGTOW are misogynists."

Well, the jury is out on that one, lol.

As a woman, I can tell you that it is not hate I perceive from the majority of MGTOW. I perceive mostly pain. Sometimes disappointment, sometimes heart-wrenching bitterness and regret...Which all leads to avoidance...and indifference.
Which can be shockingly sustainable.

I respect your own MGHOW decision.

You are still young enough to scour the Earth for a good girl should you wish to (and should you change your mind about MGTOW one day and/or should you want your own bloodline to continue - against the odds).

Otherwise, yes, do whatever you can to retain your sanity, sanctity and rectitude.

Absolutely.

As 'Hitch' said in the film of the same name, Rule number one is...there are no rules.

In this day and age, we have to make our own individual rules.

fequalma said...

I don't want to keep bothering you, but you said you live in Europe

"on eliminating gender stereotypes in the EU": http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/08/eu-porn-ban_n_2835991.html?1362747630&utm_hp_ref=uk

Yea we can all laugh at it because "it won't go anywhere". But the attitude will continue to exist. Cunning politicians will do anything and everything to increase their power, and the really stupid ones will actually sincerely believe in this shit. They dress up really evil shit with pleasant sounding titles, and NO ONE does the due diligence of actually reading anything they sign, or vote on anymore.
Bills/legislation proposals are hundreds or thousands of pages.

This is why I want to watch the world burn. Its not about women, or porn, or any of this shit.

Western civilizations are at a turning point. There will be rapid and accelerating decline in the coming years.

I'am not superstitious. I was not alluding to god or any other such nonsense in my previous post.

We only get one life, and I'm not optimistic about society, or the rest of my life. But I will be prepared.

Spacetraveller said...

Fequalma,

Yes, I live in Switzerland.

You know, whilst I sympathise with the true victims of the sex trade (the trafficked women and children, the women (and men) who are just too poor to make a coherent decision about their life), I am not sure that a ban on this trade is possible. Sadly.

On one level I agree with you that this world is destined for the Big Smoke, real soon.

But (and I have heard this argument against women before), I lack the sense of reality that you have!

Hope springs eternal in the female mind and heart, Fequalma (except the few times when it doesn't, and then we feel guilty for the lost hope). I know it's not logical.

You guys call it the hamster :-)

I think it is 'normal' that we see the world differently. I guess you would be horrified if you saw the world from my point of view and vice versa.

However I heed your sensible words. You are clearly more realistic than I am.
Yes it is essential that one is prepared for whatever comes next. I am with you on that one.

I think this is you:
I go down fighting. The world will burn soon and I am defending myself to the last. I will prepare for the bitter end with my honour intact.

And this is me:
Can I make a plea bargain? Some guy says the world is going down...I ain't sure if I should believe him, 'cos, you know, Jesus will save me an' all...
But, just in case, I am jumping ship to the new village before the old village goes down.
Forget honour. Shelve nobility. I don't want my hair singed. I don't want to be burned alive...

:-)

Yes, I am a coward...
Perhaps I won't accept what you have clearly accepted because I can't bear the thought of the pain/anguish/torment.
I am looking for a 'cushy' way out. Otherwise, it's denial, denial, denial.

Hey, that's a strategy that works for politicians. Why not me?
:-)

In all seriousness, indeed my denial can only go so far, Fequalma.
We are already being taxed to the eyeballs in Europe to cope with the top-heavy population histogram, where as you say, there are more pensioners per working man/woman than ever.
I guess the decline is already here...

dannyfrom504 said...

"I perceive mostly pain."

no, it's more like indifference. you already know i'm MGTOW, but i don't HATE women. women in general don't have that much influence over me to cause me to hate.

however, i do recognize the dangers of modern marriage for men, and i shan't be taking the plunge. i'll be happy and contnet at my hunting camp in texas with Brody.

Spacetraveller said...

Danny,

Yes, I know you are MGTOW :-)
I gather there is a whole range of emotions from men...but the one I happen to be most sensitive to is pain.
It might be an Achilles' heel (of sorts) of mine.

You make a great point, and one which reminds me of something else: someone said to me that when men have bad experiences with women, they tend to be soured against marriage. When women have bad experiences with men, they tend to be soured against... men.

Your comment reflects that piece of wisdom.

dannyfrom504 said...

i wouldn't say i'm soured towards marriage. it's just not a safe thing to do. there's way too much risk associated with it.

i have wronged women, and been wornged by women.but i'll never be bitter. rather, i enjoy female companionship.

but marriage, that's another story.

Daxamite said...

Smp, there is no smp. No woman, not ever. No dating, no sex, no baby for you. You will die barren and neglected. It is not called the spearhead for nothing. Upon the spear of sorrow will you be hoisted like all women and laid waste by the roadside for all to see. Mgtow is not a passive few men. It is an unforgiving mass of men like myself who will see you and your fucking village crushed into hell. I don't care what you think or what you want. I yell no, I won't and thrust my spear into the feminised machine. I thrust it hard with everything I've got because I am man and I go my own way. All of us men will bring down this house and everything in it. And then will we smile for then we will have improved the world. That is what men do. I don't need your help nor is it wanted woman. Sit back and watch, you and your kind have done enough. I will call you when it is done and not before.

Spacetraveller said...

Daxamite,

Thank you for your thoughts.
And welcome to The Sanctuary...um...I think.

Ditto for your comment at the post 'Let the woman chase you'.

Anonymous said...

I've been a MGHOW for half my life,(out of 28), I've played around with girls, done the girl friend bit, observed their behaviour and reactions from it and worked out how to "game them" from early on,

then after I thought "fuck it," after that and I didn't bother chasing skirt, did my schooling crap, got a degree in a STEM subject, sorted a business out of it, then I thought maybe not all women are like that after ten years of not chasing any girls,

well after I chased some skirt for a bit, to my surprise time had not changed their behaviour, so now after web tralling, when finaly finding a phrase to describe my type of behaviour, it seems like good practice to shield yourself from women.and treat them as if they are not there.

So now I'm back to focusing on my progress only and it won't change this time, they say once bitten, twice shy, well you would have to be stupid to be ruined on a third try.

If it isn't profitable and there's a large chance I'll lose, why should I waste my time or energy in women when I get enough social contact from work and I can wank to porn or use prostitutes?

Women must realise that cloning is just around the corner(...maybe already here) and the novalty of having clones of myself seems less risc than any type of contract or contact with a women.

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous,

Hm...I hesitated a lot before replying to your comment.

Do I detect a certain 'wistfulness' in your words?

May I be frank with you?

This is not a reproach. In fact, I think your comment is very different from those I have received from most other men on this post. For that, I thank you. Yours is a new angle on the issue.

I think you are looking for an absolution of sorts...but you cloud the issue by jumping on the bandwagon of the war-cry of 'screw them b*tches'.

This is the first time I have had this particular notion from a male commenter on this post.

You know, you are lucky. Whilst you can emerge unscathed from 'playing around', most women who do the same can't.

Whatever your reason for GYOW, it is YOUR reason - I respect that. But don't blame women for your own misdeeds, whatever you do. You will only come to hate yourself for doing so, later in your life.

I'm afraid I don't share your glee on the impending advent of cloned life either. Sorry.

I am sure God knew what He was doing when He designed it that a man and a woman come together to create a new life. Whatever the results of today's debauched SMP, I would still say that the 'natural' way trumps cloning. Every time.

Single parenthood is not ideal. But it is still better than bypassing what God intended altogether.

I wish you every bit of luck and peace, as you negotiate your way through this maze of complications we call life...

Anonymous said...

anonymous from March 27, 2013 at 7:33 PM , to say I'm wistful is a little strange as every one has an animal instinct which is easy to manipulate. Even easier to manipulate when you don't know your just an animal to begin with.

By descibing me as looking for "absolution" is utter nonsense as I never had any obligation as "I just don't give a shit"--that is a honeybadger quote.

I'm not in any "bandwagon" this is my perspective on the matter over the last 18 years of naturalistic observation in the field of real life. But it takes alot of analysis before you can come to such conclusions as "neverland can make you forget" because every one is so plugged into the system that the illusion becomes reality and some times you catch the bug too.

"You know, you are lucky. Whilst you can emerge unscathed from 'playing around', most women who do the same can't."--
I don't understand why a women would be unlucky and me lucky, surly if every one is equal both would have to be either lucky or unlucky, your logic is not very sound here, in fact it sounds silly.

"Whatever your reason for GYOW, it is YOUR reason - I respect that. But don't blame women for your own misdeeds, whatever you do. You will only come to hate yourself for doing so, later in your life." This is totaly illogical to say, you are responsible for your own actions, Why would I blame some one else for my own misdeeds?

And by saying you don't share "glee" in cloned life is showing that you don't know anything about the subject. You know you can clone your own tissues and organs, its not just cloning little fetuses.

I'm afraid I don't think your god really knew what he was doing at all, as there is so many things that can go wrong in trying to conceive and give birth to a healthy child that he really didn't "give a shit" aswell, because he is just an imagination in your mind, A construct of your perception of reality to make every thing feel a bit better, like opium but a cheaper version.

I'm what you folk call a godless heathen so all that psycho babble about how god knew best is crap filling my ears, I've read the history and seen how you crazed relgious people like to persecute scientists, but now its the scientists turn to run the show as truth and logic are more powerful than illusion and lyes.

"the flask is my canvas , the periodic table my palette"----anonymous.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

Perhaps a little explanation is in order. Actually I think I owe you one: I was a bit 'cryptic' in my last comment to you.

What I meant was, most men who commented on this post were firmly in one of two camps (not much 'sitting on the fence'). In one camp were the 'incels', the 'unlucky in love', the rejected (by women). These men came to the realisation that after years of surviving without women, they could jolly well continue in life without them, thankyouverymuch (unless they happened to meet an exceptional one that would make them rethink this decision (which they believe would be a rare occurrence).

In the other camp is the group who very much had plenty of what womanhood has to offer. Some went on to marry (the same woman who was 'generous' to them or another), others were more 'opportunistic' in their approach.
The common theme from theis second group of men is that they had their fill, maybe it worked out for them, maybe it didn't, but they accept that they took full advantage of the easy pickings they got out of 'the liberation of women'. They regret that the majority of women may not make it to 'marriage material' status anymore, but one thing I notice about this group is that they do not jump on the bandwagon of the first group of men and they are also generally not so vociferous in their reproach of women.
You begin your comemnt by placing yourself in this second category of men, and yet your reproach of women is similar to that of the first group.
My take-away from your comment therefore, was that either you were an unwilling member of the second group (and therefore you wish to retrospectively distance yourself from them, in which case, you are looking for 'absolution', OR...well, the alternative exlanation is far worse, and I refrain from elaborating on it therefore.
In either case, I may have read you wrong.
This is what happens when I think aloud.

About you being 'lucky', I am not jumping on the 'apex fallacy' bandwagon. Not at all.
It is indeed true that in general, men recover better from past 'casual encounters' than women. There is a lot of scientific data backing this up. And for once, religious prejudice on my part does not conflict with scientific evidence :-)

I am afraid I do know one or two things about cloning. Your assumption on this score is wrong, but I shall leave it at that.

I am indeed aware that you can clone your own tissues, and that little fetuses don't have to be involved.
It is the principle of reproducing any organism without going through 'the usual channels' that I have an issue with, but that's a personal thing, and I am not going to argue with you about what your own personal beliefs and principles are. I just state that our views are opposing.
In this regard, 'God' stands for 'Nature' and my objection to cloning is not even particularly religious, even though I generally take a religious stance on most philosophical controversies.

Yes I agree that religion is the 'opium of the masses' as they say.
Which means I am 'stoned' half the time.
And yes, religion is a powerful tool for bad things too. But it depends who is using it. In that case, it is not the religion, but the person misusing it who is at fault.
I would hope that I never stop being Catholic because there exist paedophilic priests, just as I hope my Muslim neighbour would not stop being Muslim because there exist suicide bombers...

Anonymous said...

Yep, MGTOW aren't coming back to the village. It's not initiation either...

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous,

May I tinker with your comment a bit?

Some MGTOW aren't coming back to the village.
There, that's better :-)

For every MGTOW who is not coming back ever, no way José, no siree, there are probably 10 men who despair at the lack of marriageable options among women and wish they could find a compatible woman. This is sad, and largely correctable (eventually).

The problem is that many of these men are the 'quiet man' types and expect women to change of their own accord without any 'nudging' from the men. This is perhaps a reasonable expectation, but we women (especially we of the 'modern' variety, cough, cough, are rather insensitive to subtle demands.
So in all humility, the more outspoken men eg. you Manosphere types :-) are useful in educating women.
Your style is perhaps a little 'rough' (cough, cough) but at least you get the message 'out there'.
And more and more women are listening, because we collectively need a different message to that of feminism, which has blighted the lives of one or two generations before us, so we are all ears now :-)
In other words, feminism is getting 'a bit old', quite literally.
So it is perhaps partially incorrect to say that MGTOW are gone for good.

It's more like, 'We will be gone a while - sort yourselves out before we get back in time for dinner'. LOL.
The clever women will get dinner ready for when he is back.
The dumb ones will not.
It's a simple numbers game.
Gosh, I ought to stop watching those cowboy westerns...
:-)

Your job is to scout around for a woman who will or might consider your needs (in addition to hers).

Tough ask, I know, but it can be done. If you want to, that is.

It is a question of education.
Remember that, probably like you, women have also been 'misled'.

Life is a journey of never-ending education.
Sure, some behaviours are destructive to the core, I understand that.
And many women are irreversibly damaged. But of course not all. So it still makes sense to fish around...if you can be bothered to do so...

Anonymous said...

If i had been dumped by "elders" and survived.
When i wouldcome back i would kill all the elders who comdemned me to death and the women who "want heroes".
I would kill them all because they are animals ! And should be treated like animals.

Have a nice day :)

Anonymous said...

The initiation theory is a BS. MGTOW is a natural way for a men to lick their wounds and hurt that the society caused. It will never heal not in foreseeable future. Look at the legal environment. Except 1% of the men who are lucky, vast sea of men are persecuted, exploited of their labor, and killed by in a name of war by 1%.

Women flock to these 1% percentters and only when they approach 30s, their beauties wane and 1% percentters leave them for another women, they need some omega and white knight men to foot the bill for them.

For average men, even if they earn more than 100000 dollars, they will always be lonely and as a man they have to deal with it. it is what they are.

I see that society doesn't need men anymore. I don't feel wanted or needed except my labor which is exploited by legal environment if you ever, unknowingly, enter into marriage.

Men's needs are not met but women's needs are taken care by papa government which in turn tax working men even if they are losing the job in droves to other countries..and affirmative actions and for women.

Anyways there is no hope left for men like me and vast majority even if they earn millions of dollars. they can not see their child if they got divorced then what is the incentive to work hard, invent, innovate and all? BS.

MGTOW is good. Taking care of oneself without the support of anybody is a real survival. Hope is a only thing that gets you going!

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous at 5.12 AM, June 18,

Hm, would you really?

I would have thought that 'initiation' when used to mean 'launch into manhood' is a GOOD thing for men.

Now I wouldn't know if ALL men need this kind of brutal journey to become 'real men', but I know that as a woman, I appreciate it (in this sense I mean I perceive it) when a man has 'been through something). I think this is kind of what I refer to in the blog post about Mark Wahlberg (The eoitome of Game). I think this is what I like to call 'Inner Game'. It shows a man 'owns' as Danny from 504 likes to put it. He has been through 'stuff'.

The point is that this 'thing' that men go through distinguishes men from women.
It makes men attractive to women.

I can tell an 'uninitiated' man a mile off. I really can!
I don't exaggerate here.

I can tell you that 'initiation' can help make a man more attractive to a woman.

That's not to say that a man need go through undue pain for women though.
But it is in his nature to seek a challenge, independent of women, no?
Initiation is only the first in a long line of lifelong challenges he must face.

Of course women face challenges too. But in general, our challenges make us less attractive to men, not more!

Or to put it another way, male type 'initiations' that some women go through may provide them with the strength of character that is quite rare among women, but this is not necessary for attraction to men (which is largely visual). But of course it may add 'points' to her value at a later stage.

For you men, this initiation is mandatory because women are designed to sniff this thing out.

This is one way feminism is killing men. On the one hand men are told (by women) to be more 'feminine', (i.e. leave out the traditionally male pursuits) but the absence of these same male pursuits makes men unattractive to women!

Are you absolutely sure you want to kill the elders??
:-)

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous at 10.05 PM, June 20,

Yes, I agree with you entirely that self-preservation among men is a key factor in the MGTOW movement.
Of course I cannot blame men for this.

I have been told by others on this thread that my initiation claim is false, in this context. I accept that.

I think everyone understands by now that something is very wrong. Even people I wouldn't expect to be Red Pill are waking up to the fact that men are being ripped off in society and (most) women are taking full advantage of this situation for their personal gain with no regard for the consequences.

I have no problem about MGTOW. I hope that much is clear by now.

My angle is that there is a way to clear up this mess. It won't be easy and it would involve going against the very grain of society itself, but it can be done.

So those men who have the energy and the inclination to help with this can join in. For others, it may not be their cup of tea to correct the ills of society.
Fair enough.

Ezriel said...


The others will not come back.

Women only want heroes on their parade.

The women rejoice at their returning heroes. A great celebration is held for the new members of the village. They feel the love, admiration and respect of everyone around them.

All but one.

Quietly a father searches the perimeter for his son. “He’ll make it”, he says to himself. But as the hours pass, he is forced to return home and comfort his mate over what is increasingly obvious even if he won’t admit it to himself. His mate is sad, but resolute. “It had to be done”, she remarks. “Only the strong have the right to survive.” As the night falls and his mate drifts off to sleep the father cries for his son.

When the morning comes, the father’s mate rolls over and finds a cold, empty bed. Sure that he is hunting she busies herself with her daily tasks. As the day goes by, more and more of the hunters return to smiling families, marveling at bounty they provide. A niggling doubt creeps into her thoughts, her mate has yet to return and night has fallen. She asks the other hunters if they had seen her mate to no avail. No one has seen him since the celebration.

Deep in the jungle, a father hunts not for food but for his son. He uses every trick his father taught him but it fails him. No blood, no body, no trace whatsoever. Sure that his son survived after all he rushes to the village expecting to find his smiling son, now a man!

Nothing but emptiness greets him. He knew then that it will never be the same.

Time passes: days become months, months become years but the father never forgot. Couldn’t, no matter how hard he tried. Everyone’s life continued as nothing has happened. Sick of it all, he drifts off to the jungle never to be heard of again.

Even without one of their hunters, the village prospered and grew. Their time honored tradition has served them well. The strong live, the weak are culled. The women prepare for that night’s celebration and as the boys, now men, return. The celebration is held and the men can feel the love, admiration and respect of everyone around them.

All but one…

***

I hope you don’t mind Spacetraveller, I took your narrative and made one of my own. It’s shorter than I wanted it to be but I’ve a limited space. I apologize in advance as English is not my primary language. What I’m trying to illustrate here is that, at least for me, the system becomes unsustainable. It works for a while but it will implode at some point. More and more men are drifting away from the village, if they make it back to begin with.

I turned 30 last month and it has turned my sight inward. I look back at the roads I’ve traveled; that my father traveled and his father before him. The beaten path is familiar to me, but no longer fulfilling. Somewhere along the line, something fell off and broke. Whatever it was, I couldn’t fix it. I had to make something new to replace it with but that something, that elusive thing, is now tugging at me towards a new path. One away from what is expected of me. But I don’t see it as a loss, more and more I see what awaits me at the end. It is not without its peril, to walk this path I must discard everything that has led me this far and remake myself anew. But what awaits me at the end is more precious than diamonds, more beautiful than your child’s first word, sweeter than a woman’s first kiss.

What awaits me at the end is freedom, and I like it.

Spacetraveller said...

Ezriel,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

I learned something from your heartfelt comment.

I respond to it in a full-blown post.

Beautiful words. You are a poetic soul, aren't you :-)

Ezriel said...

I'll look forward to it.

Ceer said...

I've never agreed with the "religion is the opium of the masses" argument. It's based on Karl Marx's flawed ideology that humans are basically fungible production units at their core, and all human society is built on that premise, religion being something to keep the rabble in place. The fact is, Christianity predated the world order of his day by about half a millennium.

This is one way feminism is killing men. On the one hand men are told (by women) to be more 'feminine', (i.e. leave out the traditionally male pursuits) but the absence of these same male pursuits makes men unattractive to women! -- Spacetraveller

What you're describing here is the part of feminism acting as a massive culturewide shit test. In a sense, the women are applying the coming of age to modern society with brutal efficacy. It wouldn't be so bad if only cultural traditions were affected, but the law and religion have been taken and used for this purpose too. The only men capable of passing this gauntlet are ones capable of charming their way through scores of women who can at a hare trigger use the power of the society to deprive him of his rights.

The problem is that many of these men are the 'quiet man' types and expect women to change of their own accord without any 'nudging' from the men. -- Spacetraveller

From what I can tell, any explicit demand from a man is taken by the woman as an impingement on her freedom.

Some MGTOW aren't coming back to the village.
There, that's better


I'm sorry to disappoint, but the definition of MGTOW is any man who refuses to interact with women in any deep or meaningful way. Men who are still trying to date women, for instance, are by definition not MGTOW.

I admire your search for hope for this situation, but the reality is that women have dug themselves into a huge hole. Imagine water coming in to erode the bottom further. Things are going to get a lot worse before they can get better...IF they CAN get better.

Spacetraveller said...

Ceer,

Are you absolutely sure that MGTOW are 100% staying away from women?

As I understand it, a certain percentage of this group of men will date women, but won't consider marriage as an option for them. These men will sill call themselves 'MGTOW'. For example, Danny is in this group.
I suspect that the sub-group who will have absolutely nothing to do with women are a small minority.

Some, like Danny will tell a woman from the outset that they are not looking for marriage, or even a relationship. What's confusing for women is that the others will not make it known they are not in it for the long haul. Which begs the question: what on Earth is a woman doing with a man who she is not sure is in it for the long haul?
Exactly.

My position is not all about blind hope. I think I see nuances of the problem that may not be apparent to you as a man.

In my intended reply to LHB, I shall illustrate what I mean by way of a post.

I believe the problem is simpler than we make it, but the way to repair it involves a way of thinking that is not standard anymore.

It's almost as though we need a new breed of woman. One who can adapt to a rapidly changing world and yet who is comfortable with old style values.

An old woman in a young woman's body :-)

Anonymous said...

Sex and female companionship are highly overrated.

Men spend half their lives chasing women in futility(they don't turn on the woman) or they get what they want and then spend the next 18 years paying child-support and in many cases, alimony for many decades to come.

Every man I've talked is the same. The men who are 30 years old and less spend so much money, time and effort on women - with most not getting anything in return due to women's hypergamy and sexual attraction to only Alpha males - and the older men, the men who've had relationships and have lived with women look and feel far older than their real age.

And they all regret marrying.

There's just not anything for us. Sexual, emotional or just friendsip with women, it all results in the same. Women receive, men give, men are used and exploited.

All that women have to ''offer''(if you pay a fixed price in the form of ''commitment'') is sex and children.

Sex is not all that great. I had been lusting after this tall, natural blonde German woman, and after becoming sexually attractive I eventually managed to have sex, but it was so... boring.

Children is all women have as leverage, but women tend to divorce their husbands sooner or later out of boredom or because the bigger, better deal and you're left with 18 years of child-support while being allowed to only see your kid a weekend per month.

No, thanks. I'm a young man going my own way, and there's nothing women have that I want. I've mastered myself and became far greater than what the white knights, manginas, and PuA's can ever aspire to be.

Anonymous said...

"The heroes will return to the village, with a lot to offer the village."

Why?

The heroes will leave, and establish their own village. The women will come, each with her own excuses.

Anonymous said...

@Anon...8:10am


""she died in that house, died of cancer, with her hand in mine, ten years ago. I was 48 that day, with friends that age who were grandparents. So I believe I know what it is to "man up."""


You sir are a man to be idolized....I salute you!

""your fear of abandonment does not equal our fear of enslavement, or our rage at the "third-class" treatment we are getting, or our increasingly-bitter awareness of the contempt of your sisters""

Keep being single!....you are a man to be admired!


Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous at 5:36 AM, July 8,

"All that women have to ''offer''(if you pay a fixed price in the form of ''commitment'') is sex and children."

Obviously your own experiences tell you otherwise, but I am led to believe that women's offer of sex and children is quite a gift in itself. Don't knock it :-)

But in addition, I would postulate that women can offer a lot more than this.

My dream (and prayer) for you is that you experience this in its fullness in the near future and from then on, forever.

"Sex is not all that great. I had been lusting after this tall, natural blonde German woman, and after becoming sexually attractive I eventually managed to have sex, but it was so... boring."

Perhaps what you are describing here is the emptiness of sex for its own sake.

Whatever you feel, realise that this is a thousand times worse for the woman involved, (whether or not she verbalises it) because she is wired differently.
You Sir, are the luckier party here.

Again I wish you better luck in your future encounters with women.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Paul Murray,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

You make a good point.

Wherever these men are, they are needed. If they forsake the village in large enough numbers, women who are fed up with waiting will seek them out :-)

Anonymous said...

I found your blog linked from an old 2012 MGTOW forum thread. There really isn't much more for me to say that hasn't already been said but I will add my views anyway.

I have never been burned by women, Ive never been married, I have no children, I am in my 30's, Ive had some good connections with women and I have been approached and receive interest from them a lot.

However, I started noticing a lot of double standards, their entitlement or what I call princess syndrome but most of all, even the most beautiful looking woman that carries herself well and is nicely spoken so often turns out to be sleeping around and giving it up to almost anyone.

I started to notice some women (in their late 20's to early 30's)trying desperately to appear as 'good girls' and then letting slip that they had been with more men than they said they had been with(they volunteered this information without me asking). I also noticed women who had slept around a lot during their teen years (gang bangs and abortions included for some)suddenly wanting to find a nice guy (who they probably ignored in their 20's)and settle down at 30+ like their past didn't matter.

Then I learned about the bias misandry legal system (you can get jailed for looking at women in France), the high numbers of women who have abused students in education consistently being let off without jail terms (See the website that lists them here http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/39783/)and a lot of the other points that have already been mentioned. In general, getting into a relationship, dating, courting and getting married seems to have no worth since so many women have priced themselves out of the market due to their attitudes, doubler standards, lack of self respect, their promiscious activities and it seems so many women have forgotten how to be women, how to be truly feminine, respectful to self and others and this leaves men with no reason to invest. Personally, I will never be coming back. Once you see the truth in life, it is impossible to return to a lie.


I enjoyed your post and it is the first one Ive seen that doesn't involve any shaming tactics or typical feminist nonsense.

Spacetraveller said...

Thank you Anonymous at 7.1 PM, for sharing your experiences and what you have observed.

I have no reason to doubt your observations. I have begun to notice these things myself (sadly) by being very vigilant (because of course, it wouldn't be 'normal' for me to easily notice these things as I am not a man dating women of today. So it is great to have insider tips from you guys, so to speak. I have of course learned a lot from you men, especially in this post.

No shaming tactics, because those are a confirmed loser's strategy. Better to listen up, learn and improve. Which I hope to be able to honestly say I am doing.

I have come to have a certain respect for the MGTOW movement. So whilst I sometimes doubt whether someone can be truly content when they have sworn off the opposite sex, I also recognise that I am programmed differently from you and will always at some level be uncomfortable with this idea. But that's OK! Knowing that a man does not NEED marriage as much as a woman does is a comfort to me because I can get my head around the notion that you will be OK.

A woman who professes to be WGTOW is more likely to get the kneejerk 'honey we need to talk!' reaction from me, lol.

But I won't do that with you. YOU will be just fine with the choice you have made. Somehow, you will be fine.

And that's lovely to feel within my core.

I concentrate on rebuking my own gender on this blog, because I feel differently about women. We (the majority of us) have a lot of work to do, to correct a whole lotta wrongs!
(And I actually include myself here - this is truly a learning experience for me too - believe you me, I am not on some sort of high horse here...).

Hopefully we learn together...men and women alike.



Live Free or Die said...

Can you elaborate more on this?

I can tell an 'uninitiated' man a mile off. I really can!
I don't exaggerate here.


Obviously confidence and body language play a large part in this, but do you need to interact with a guy over a period of time to tell if he is "uninitiated"?

Can you point to a guy on the street 100 feet away whom you have never met before and "tell"?

If so, how do you know that he isn't just having a bad day and is down that his grandmother just died or something?

And.....besides war, what counts as an "initiation"?

I find this so fascinating.

Anonymous said...

This is precious... Women are sooo desperate for marriage and companionship... that man had to create laws that kept women from being able to take care of themselves and therefore had no choice BUT to marry. women had to be legally forced into marriage if women were able to take care of themselves they wouldn't be so interested in men... and... that's what happened. But sure, women are desperate for marriage.

Spacetraveller said...

Live Free or Die,

To answer your question, no it is not 'immediate'. At least, not usually.

I think for women, (myself included of course) the qualities needed (in a man) i.e. a certain confidence, take time to be teased out.

You would know that for a man to decide whether a woman is 'hot' takes seconds.

That kind of physical attraction also takes seconds in a woman. But what I was specifically referring to when I made the statement above, was the 'alphaness' (is he worthy of years of servitude, my childbearing years, my special 'favours', my love, my trust, my complete and utter submission - the whole shebang) of the man, which cannot be judged in seconds, precisely because he may indeed be having an 'off day'. Those women who are too hasty in this crucial decision-making are the ones who make a massive 'mistake' and are seeking divorce a short time afterwards...

It should take time for a woman to define what really attracts her to a man. The 'gina tingles' thing is not a good decision-maker, but sadly that's what a lot of women nowadays are using as their sole decider.

Occasionally, though, it is easy enough to decide on the spot as to what one DOESN'T want in a man. There are some behaviours that violently and viscerally turn off a woman - for life. Overly supplicating a woman at first encounter is one such behaviour. It gives her the subliminal message that you have not quite got to the 'top of your game'. That you have not met with the steely hardship that qualifies you in a manly way. It is very hard to describe, LFOD, but a woman feels it in her core. Unfortunately, when such a man is later found to have the right kind of qualities, it is still too late because the first encounter killed off any possible attraction. Sad but unfortunately true.

If I could help any man find a woman who will be truly attracted to him, I would labour this point:

Show her your 'alpha' (i.e. confident, secure in your movements/thoughts/ideals) side first, then 'beta' in that order. And subsequently 'mix it up' as ou go along, as in alpha, then beta, back to alpha, etc...
What your particular brand of 'alpha' consists of, is of course up to you, and is congruent with your personality and upbringing...

It is what it is. Please don't shoot the Messenger :-)

According to the psychiatrist Christos, 'initiation' is any crisis a man faces beyond puberty. He elaborates here.
http://www.christoscenter.com/toward.html. You may find the specific chapters on 'initiation' in the archives.

I found his writings fascinating too. Pity he doesn't write about women. I would be interested in what psychiatrists thought of the trials of womanhood :-)

Especially given that there are so many 'unhappy' women about...











Anonymous at 1.53PM,

Spacetraveller said...

Well, I wouldn't perhaps use the word 'desperate' as a general rule :-)

But I do think it is a need many women have.

'Companionship' in the form of cohabitation is a 'second choice' in that though it does provide many of the characteristics of actual marriage, but the knowledge that it is not the 'full product' nonetheless exists. So there are many decoys put into place to fool individual women into accepting cohabitation as the next best thing. But they are not fooled of course, they know there is something missing...

And as study after study proves, it is marriage that provides the best support for women and children.

And this is why it is that which women need, and not its watered-down substitute.

Of course, in keeping with this need, many women want marriage. And for that matter, so do men. The biological and social imperatives for both sexes, however, are very different.

Anonymous said...

IF MGTOW is simply a label for a phenomenon (i.e. is neither political nor ideological) then I am a de facto MGHOW. Before I first heard of MGTOW or MRA I used to think I was either insane or the only sane person in a barking mad feminist world. Whenever I criticized the latest example of Politically Correct lunacy in the Media, or "Justice", or Health, or Education, or Welfare, or Employment etc etc women would flat-out disagee with me and men would look uncomfortable and say nothing. The women in particular seemed to suffer from a dreadful mental handicap - an apparent inability to bring openness of mind to matters of gender.

Then I found the MRA and Whew! The relief! I'm not mad, I realized, other men see through the craziness too.

About a year ago, about 9 months before I first heard of MGTOW, this is what I told all the women in my life :
1. I cannot live with feminism.
2. If I were a woman I would have to openly distance myself from the bigotry of feminism, otherwise I'd be guilty of giving it my tacit support.
3. None of the women in my life make any effort to distance themselves from the bigotry - on the contrary, they leap to defend it.
4. I cannot live with feminism. If I continue to have friends who support feminism, I'll be a hypocrite. As a feminist supporter, you are no longer welcome in my life.

So, there are no longer women in my life. This has hurt them and I don't like to hurt people. Most have respected my decision, although they do have some amusing ways of making their feelings known - e.g. on one Christmas card:
"Dare I send you a Xmas card? "
(Then there was a cartoon sketch of a fish stumping along on its tail in pursuit of a run-way bicycle)
"Vain hope! I just can't bear to think I'll NEVER see you again? Ouch! I miss you so much xxxx"

ST, things are NOT getting much better in the village. Every brick you lay, feminism whips it away. Living in Europe, you are probably already aware of this one:

"EU to ban anti-feminist speech" http://www.avoiceformen.com/updates/eu-to-ban-anti-feminist-speech

Anonymous said...

@ST, do you realize that all you seem to bring up over and over again is how this hurts women more and how this effects women? This is because as a woman you are naturally wired to only care about your own well being. You pay lip service to giving a shit about "MGTOW" but only in as much as it affects you.

1. You are single.
2. You don't want to be.
3. Too bad.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and save the dating advice, another clue you don't actually give a shit.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous at 5:07AM,

Like you, I swing between hope that things are changing, and despair that they are not.

I have to say though, that the general trend is 'upwards' in the sense that there may be 'dips' in my hope, but in general, I see that more and more people are waking up to the ridiculous state of affairs, and like you and me, are finding new ways to adapt or accept.

I suspect that many more people than are broadcasting it are rejecting feminism. Because they really have no choice.

The good news about a movement which actively promotes hate is that one day it will be consumed by its own fruits.

So feminism will have to die, with or without help from the general population.

But of course, we are impatient. We want it to die yesterday already :-)

I absolutely agree with you. Men cannot live with feminism. And for that matter, neither can the majority of women. The question is, do they know that?

I would love for the young women of today to realise that they cannot live with feminism before it is too late to matter.



@ Anonymous at 9PM and 9:04PM,

I am sorry that you come to that conclusion.

The good news is that this blog is not about me impressing the rest of you that I care, per se.

It is about pondering the state of affairs and having debate about what can be done to improve things for ourselves, our loved ones and the wider community. It is about sharing ideas.

So whilst I 'talk' a lot, please don't focus on whether or not I 'care'.

It would be a huge waste of my time to talk incessantly about a topic that I care nothing about, but I grant that it happens :-)

Sure I care about women. Guilty. But that's half of the story :-)Have you noticed that it would be counterproductive and for sure it doesn't even make sense to care only about women and not men?

There is a name for people who elevate the interests of women above men. It starts with a big 'F'.

And this whole blog is about how evil that movement is, and how deletrious the effects of that movement has been to all our lives men and women.

Given that I believe my views are contrary to the views of that movement, I reject your claims.

But of course you are entitled to your own opinion. That is absolutely fine. But if your opinion is hindering the discussion about the issues at hand, please don't be offended if we move on...
No offence intended.

Anonymous said...

I am Anonymous 5:07 AM which is a clue that I live on the other side of the world. Call me "Down Under" heheh.

In your reply of 10:17 you say "I suspect that many more people than are broadcasting it are rejecting feminism". That has not been my experience in my part of the world, I'm afraid. NONE of the women previously in my life rejected feminism. As I told them, in not rejecting it, they are giving it their tacit support.

Take "EU to ban anti-feminist speech" (http://www.avoiceformen.com/updates/eu-to-ban-anti-feminist-speech) as an example. I find this absolutely appalling. We all know feminism is a sacred cow, that criticism of it is stifled and suppressed, but CODIFYING suppression can only mean the lunies have finally and completely won. We are talking about totalitarianism, are we not? Enforced ideology. Totalitarian Feminism. Feminazism, literally.

As a white male, I'm told I am so over-privileged that my opinion is worthless. Selective suppression of opinion already occurs in universities. But soon many of the comments here (including some of yours) will be a crime. It means mens rights will be outlawed, because criticism of the excesses of feminism is the first step to getting a better deal for men.

Europe is facing official, up front, legislated tyranny. If more and more Europeans are rejecting feminism, why aren't they protesting in the streets? Mere "rejection" of tyranny sounds like lip service only.

Unlike you, I don't "swing between hope that things are changing, and despair that they are not". I see a worsening state of affairs, steadily worsening... all the time.

ST, I loath the herd. I wont return to it. I loath it as much as you, I'm sure, would loath nazism if confronted by it. I don't loath women per se. For me, MGHOW is a survival mechanism and an expression of honesty. I am distancing myself from the herd.

None of the women I knew rejected feminism. That's why I don't want them in my life.

Down Under

Spacetraveller said...

Down Under,

An official welcome to The Sanctuary to you!

I hear ya. I fully accept that perhaps I am more willing than you (as a man) to see hope where there is none, because I really really want women (my sisters) to wake up and smell the coffee, and I know that only we can turn things around. Men may help, by 'civilising' us and not giving us the time of day (AKA MGTOW!!!) when we are bad, but rewarding good behaviour from us. Frankly, I think it also goes both ways. Too many women are rewarding the bad boys and here we are with a massive rise in PUA-dom.

Yes, not speaking out publicly and loudly against feminism is a problem. I wouldn't know where to start, to be honest. The way I see it working is to go the subtle route, droppimng hints here and there. The message is subliminally internalised this way, and I think it could be more effective.

If you live in Australia, then I have to say I have not much experience of life there (except what I have seen on Neighbours and Home and away, lol.

But my guess is that it is as bad as Europe...

Perhaps your actions as a MGHOW is aready reaping results, who knows? Perhaps you have already got some women in your social circle thinking, as you hinted at in your previous comment. How long before they want to explore your feminism-free life to see if they could be a part of it? And then of course you will have to decide if you want a pesky woman under your feet or not :-)

The process will be slow and painful, but I remain optimistic that some changes will occur, for the better. Look at where we are now - it doesn't take a genius to work out that something has to change. Perhaps things will get to near-collapse before the changes occur, but hey, better late then never.

I think you are doing the right thing for you. You must never capitulate to accommodate what you don't want. Reward what you like and punish what you don't. Pure Pavlovian programming.

Are you in a position to 'go foreign'? There are other communities in the world where feminism hasn't taken hold, surely. In the Southern Hemisphere there must be many...Or do you have a similar problem to what John Galt hinted at, which is that foreign women have their own set of problems...?

Alternatively, would it be possible to try what some of my male friends are doing - picking a girl they like and 'training' her according to how they like a woman to be... I swear this is unbelievably effective. But not that surprising...many women do like to be led, by men they like. So the hard part would be attracting her first. Then it's plain sailing after that. I attest to that strategy being quite the eye-opener...

Anonymous said...

Thankyou for the welcome. I come from New Zealand, not Australia, and yes we have virulent feminism here too. However there's no talk here yet of making criticism of feminism a crime... touch wood.

Look, ST, it's good that you reject feminism at all. Not enough women do. But do you really think "the subtle route, droppimng hints here and there" is going to prevent the passing of that EU law (the one that would make criticism of feminism a crime)?

I don't know how it works in Europe, but in NZ I would write to the MP of the Electorate to which I belong, or to whichever body or committee or quango the Bill is at as it goes through the ponderous process of becoming Law. If you don't think it is important enough for you to take some action, then you are not really rejecting feminism as I see it. This law will go beyond suppression of expression. It will create not a new offense, but a new CRIME, punishable by imprisonment (unless you are under 17 in which case you will be sent for compulsory re-education). As such, it will cut right into the heart of Liberty itself. Liberty is worth fighting for, right?

The structures of feminism are so huge and deeply entrenched, so heavily supported by sycophantic white males, that removal of them would seem to be an insurmountable task. This law, though, is a standout case where freedom-minded women really could draw the line. And women CAN protest more effectively than men: it is difficult for feminism to howl down women with a barrage of anti-male cliches.

'Training' : Nope! Not interested. (but in a non-feminazi world it would be a fun thing to do).

'Go foreign' : my older brother has done just that, but he lives in Shanghai. If he shifts back to Australia or NZ, his wife will soon learn (if she doesn't know already) that she has the power to "wreck his life with one phone call" as the saying goes. I like parts of Asia, but I like my present beautiful, healthy, clean location much much more. So!! I will continue on my merry MGHOW!

All the best to you.

Down Under

PVW said...

@ST:

1. You are single.
2. You don't want to be.
3. Too bad.

Me: This comment had me howling in laughter. Not only is it ironic in light of everything (wink, wink) but it is like the feminist who says that any male critic of feminism must be an unattractive man who can't get laid.

metak said...

@ Down Under

Funny you mentioned that article about EU law as I recently also wrote to ST on this blog that it's only a matter of time before manosphere becomes a hate crime. BTW, according to that law, criticizing feminism is just one 'wrong' thing among many. Yes, it's bad here in EU and it's only getting worse. You know, that strange unpleasant feeling you get when you study history and then you see the same thing happening again? Not good. The goal remains the same, global government with centralized decision making and it's scary how far down the road we already are. Luckily for me I don't live in western Europe where these laws are the worse, but nevertheless this is global blueprint and eventually it will be the same everywhere.

You're being delusional if you think that significant number of women will actually do anything about it since that would mean loss of those 'goodies' feminism brought them. Not gonna happen. That's why I'm thinking, like so many on mgtowforums, about building a small cabin in near future, somewhere secluded and peaceful to live my life.

Enjoy GYOW, brother Down Under. :-)

Anonymous said...

@metak
I already live in a secluded cabin brother! Peace reigns here! The insanity of the outside world still creeps in, though. Maybe I should throw my TV and computer into the sea - it would be easily done, I live within a hop step and jump from the Pacific.

"You know, that strange unpleasant feeling you get when you study history and then you see the same thing happening again?"
Yep.
And no-one doing a damn thing to stop it.

"You're being delusional if you think that significant number of women will actually do anything about it since that would mean loss of those 'goodies' feminism brought them."
Well, some women say they reject feminism. I'm guessing you live in eastern Europe, which makes you a lot closer to it than I am. Do you think this law will pass without a murmur from any woman? What about the men? Will they do nothing?
Not much you or I can do as we live outside the EU.

sigh

Now I'm gonna wander down to the beach and along to my favourite fishing rock. After catching a fish (I always do), I'll pluck some choice vege and ripe fruit from my back garden for my evening meal. And I'll eat it on the outside deck, breathing the sea air, listening to the incomparable music of Tui birds in the trees...
Ah the joy of MGHOW !

Anonymous said...

oops, I forgot to sign off the 7:27 PM

It was me, Down Under

metak said...

@ Down Under

That sounds like a paradise man! How I envy you... :-)

Yes, some women say they reject feminism, but this means nothing really.

I live in Slovenia, EU, but also not that far from eastern Europe and this law will probably pass without a murmur from most people. Heck, most people haven't even heard about it and even if they did, they would support it in my opinion. No matter how many privileges women get the mantra in MSM and from most people, never changes -> poor poor women... oppression... it's all men's fault... blah blah...

This insanity is very much alive and spreading globally.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/topless-swastika-bearing-feminists-assault-praying-men/?cat_orig=world

Hope you catch a big one! (I mean catch a fish, not one of those from article :) Enjoy brother. :-)

Spacetraveller said...

@ Down Under,

You are right - the number of women who reject feminism is currently low. But it is rising. This is important to know.

There are lots of things I disagree with in this modern culture. But it won't be easy to fight them all as some sort of 'activist'. I prefer to do things on the quiet, in my own way. Blogging is one way I can air my thoughts and attract like-minded people who also share my thoughts. It is how I do things. There are others with a 'stronger' personality than mine who would prefer to do a protest outside of Parliament. I am not one of those people. It doesn't mean though that I don't care enough.

By the way, I am (like Metak) pleased to hear that you are enjoying your life as is. That is good news, and I like that.
Well done, and enjoy the peace!


PVW,
I can't tell you how frustrating I find it when for some readers the more important issue for them is dissing me rather than engaging in the conversation at hand.
Anonymous' sole purpose was to swing by and attack me personally. Unfortunately for him I am not in a position to indulge his need for a sopt of 'schadenfreude'. The important thing for me is to learn about why we are where we are now as a society. If he doesn't like this subject matter, I would suggest he take his personal attacks elsewhere.

It is entirely predictable and annoying when women do it, but I must say, I was a little taken aback to see this sort of behaviour from a man...

Metak,

Yes, I have seen that video about those men praying outside the cathedral and those shameful women attacking/abusing them. It is not something that I ever want to see again. How ugly and uncouth. Our Lady must be weeping her eyes out for her sons...

Anonymous said...

@metak and ST

Rest assured, a large fish was caught and consumed, and is currently fertilizing my garden... well the first two are true, anyway! (heheh)

I followed your link. Those women remind me of the S.C.U.M. hatemongers. As a MGHOW, I look at their shreiking faces and naked bodies and think "hell, I'm not missing out on much, am I?"

A number of women say they want to join me here, but I shall continue to live in a paradise sans Eve. As a result, I am discovering more and more how rewarding male friendships can be. We do extreme sports, my mates and I, and NZ is a great country for it.

Hmm, almost time to harvest today's dinner... I'm thinking mussels, cockles, pippis...
maybe grab the old scuba gear and catch a cray... wash it down with some home-brewed real ale... then catch up on some blissful sleep...
Man life is tough, it really is tough. Too too tough altogether...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Down Under

Anonymous said...

This is easy to fix. We need to understand each genders motives. A man does not want to marry used goods and a woman does not want to marry without resources.

So, ladies if you want to marry keep you legs closed. Men, you need to acquire excess resources to share with a female.

Problem solved.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

You are dead right about each gender's motives and what to do to be attractive to the opposite gender.

I love your simplicity and concise way of putting your point across. I think you have said in a few words what I have been saying on this blog using about a million words :-)

Thank you for your contribtion. Well said!

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

Just to recap again about what you so eloquently said...

All that men need women for are the 4Fs:

Family (children)
Food (cooking - let's add other domestic chores to this and anger some feminists :-)
Faithfulness (no cuckoldry Ma'am, thank you very much!)
The other 'F', we won't go into here(!) Hey, this is a family blog :-D


All that women need men for are the 4Ps:

Provision (material resources)
Protection (physical, but also social and sometimes MORAL protection, by virtue of his good leadership)
Problem-solving (solution-finding to life's little problems)
Patriachical leadership

This is the social contract between men and women.

Sure, there are men who can bring one or more of the four Fs to the marriage table. Great. These would be 'desirables' but not a NEED that the woman is looking for.
By the same token, many a woman bring one or more of the 4Ps to the table, usually the provision bit. Excellent! But the man does not absolutely NEED this in marriage. (Something's wrong if he does). So women should not be surprised if their boasts of a great career does not seem to be impressing men - men are not designed to be impressed by this!But life's curve balls being what they are, these desirable traits have their place at some point...


The feminists encouraging young women to go 'find themselves' and 'liberate themselves' sexually are doing it wrong.

The men (who still want marriage) who think it is a 'backlash against feminism' to 'deliberately' reduce their capacity to earn are also doing it wrong. (Note: I am NOT saying here that minimalism on the part of a MGHOW is wrong - this is a separate concept and has nothing to do with what I am describing here!)

Each sex has its duties ('must haves' if you like)and then desirable traits ('would be nice to have'). The 'must haves' should be sorted first, then the 'would be nice to haves').


One sex (the female sex) has gone way off base. The other is still within the boundaries of normality, and as a whole are still respect-worthy. Bravo to this sex.
Bravo also to the pockets of decent womanhood that still exists.

Until most men and most women sort out these basic issues, the SMP will remain chaotic and inefficient.

Given that most men are already where they should be on this score, it is most women who'd better start making some changes. Hence Bellita's now famous 'it is women who should blink first' speech.

See?
You said all of the above in like 2 words, and I can't say it in less than two-thousand words :-)

Thanks for your succinct style. I love it!

John Lord B3 said...

Hello dear ST,

I found this good article in Avoiceformen, good one to read over the weekend, it's about MGTOW

http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/everything-is-wrong-with-mgtow/

What are your thoughts about this?

Best Regards,

John

Spacetraveller said...

JLB3,

You ask a tough question :-)

Having cleared up my own personal hang-ups about MGTOW, I can honestly say that I see both sides of the argument now. It was something I couldn't do before, but I think I have come a long way indeed.

I have gone from believing the MGTOW movement to be a counter-productive and doomed to failure movement, to seeing it as a rational way of dealing with a serious problem, to seeing it as a sad and regrettable last resort for men who have been unfairly treated by society, to a feminist's wet dream come true, to .... a very individual problem that has its own advantages and disadvantages for the practitioner of it.

No doubt, my views on it will evolve further as I myself evolve as a person. I hope, that whatever my views on MGTOW, I can always see it as a human condition for each person that chooses it, and that above all, I can see it with seeing eyes, rather than in a purely abstract way, which is how I came to put it under the microscope on this blog in the first place, despite allegiances to men who if not frankly at the heart of this movement, were certainly at risk of embracing it.

Indeed, JLB3, true to form, I find that focusing on the personal helps. To this end, I shall post an encounter I had with a MGHOW in real life soon.


Rafe said...

I disagree with the whole idea. MGTOW is about leaving the village with full knowledge that we aren't coming back.

No initiation, no return required.

Spacetraveller said...

Rafe,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

I take it you are a MGHOW?
May I ask what your own personal journey was that led you to this decision?
(If you feel willing to share, that is... It's purely for 'filing away' in my head as 'anecdotal evidence').

Anonymous said...

You said that men may want to return to the village, not going to happen. It is not men that are broken, it is the village. Masculinity has become a crime in the village, men are considered worthless and here is just one example:

A TV show in the US had a group of women discussing a story about a man that had his penis cut off by his wife, just for asking her for a divorce. She drugged him, tied him up, cut off his penis and then threw it in the waste disposal unit. Genital mutilation is not only a serious matter, but a horrendous crime, yet these women were laughing and joking about it, they thought it was hilarious, as did the 300+ women in the audience. The clear disrespect for the man and total lack of empathy for the mutilation are clearly signs of seriously sick society.

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous @ 8:07 AM (?Rafe)

Yes, that TV show has been discussed at a lot of Manosphere sites, and maybe even here.

Of course, any right thinking person agrees that it wasn't funny what happened to that men (I think he was Chinese??) similarly, Mr. Bobbit...

For sure, no-one would be laughing if a man cut off a woman's breasts...

Yes it is sad that those women were not reprimanded for their dark humour...

But I don't really think we should take that as a sign that all or most women feel this way about this incident.

If I am wrong about this, forgive me.
Despite all of this rottenness, people still choose to get married everyday. I personally have no shortage of weddings to attend this summer.

I guess I was correct when I said that some men may still want to return to the village, DESPITE what is happening in society.

Are they all fools?

Time will tell...

Coweatsman said...

It's nice to read the views of a woman about MGTOW. I'm a male who never married. I am celibate. It simply makes life easier. I know too many married men whose lives are just so complicated. I never wanted to go there. Today we have shaming tactics like"man up", "grow up", "be a man" and "Peter Pan" but such emotional blackmail rolls off like water from a duck.

Spacetraveller said...

Coweatsman,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

I appreciate your comment. Yes, many marriages are complicated, I am sure. And for men in a feminist world, the complications must be tremendous.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Spacetraveller said...

An anonymous poster left this comment on 23 Sept 2014, 1:47AM, but for some reason it never showed up on the blog.

I repost it here:

I'm gone and I will never be back. I hate community anyway.

My response:

Just wondering why you are gone? Is it a general thing or was there a specific person/woman invloved?
Why do you hate community?
Hope my questions are not too intrusive. No worries if you prefer not to answer. Was just curious...

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous @ 1:47AM 23 Sep,

Ah, mystery solved. I found your comment, it was caught up in the spam filter...

Live Free or Die said...

Of course MGTOW is bad for women.

If 5% of men drop out (whether they realize it or not), then you have a sex ratio of 95 men for 100 women (assuming an equal sex ratio).

So now, 5 women have to share a man. This lets men get away with more. Sex on demand, sex sooner, no commitment, no marriage, no courting, etc. Look at what the 60-40 female to male sex ratio does on college campuses.

In addition to this, the sex ratio favors men later in life (lots more women than men) and also add in that men can and do date younger women.

It becomes a sexual buffet for the men who have taken decent care of themselves.

Spacetraveller said...

LFOD,

I see what you mean!

But it depends what you mean by 'bad' or 'good'.

In many ways, MGTOW could be a good thing if it forces women to 'woman up' and become good candidates for marriage. I agree with the general Manosphere notion that many women are most definitely not good wife material. (My constant beef with the Manosphere by the way is that there are still some good women out there, but that's by the by...).

If MGTOW raises the ante for women in general, then I support it.

But the problem is, MGTOW may punish the (small proportion of) good women left, the men themselves, (many of whom would rather be married and be fathers), and society at large, because of lack of children, or if there are children, they are mostly born out of wedlock...

I think, personally, that women should 'woman up' anyway. It is the only way to right this sinking ship...I truly believe this.

If MGTOW is one of the tools for this process to happen, good!
But I would still be crying for the innocent casualties, though...

I am torn...
A clear case of 'between the devil and the deep blue sea' or if you prefer, 'between a rock and a hard place'...


Anonymous said...

I commend you for expressing your opinion without prejudice and bias. It is noteworthy, however, to mention that MGTOW is different from what you described. What you said clearly demonstrates male disposability by the female collective, but what you need to realize is we left the village for good. There is no coming back. There is more than enough non-MGTOW left to ensure the continuation of our species, but we are done.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous at Nov 22, 5.25AM,

Thank you for your comment, which I agree with, having been educated on this subject for a while now.

Whilst I think it is lamentable that some men (and indeed women) who would have gone down the marriage route (and would have made good spuses, no doubt) are being diverted away from it by current conditions, I am pleased for those who really wish to GTOW and suffer no stigma for it, as they would have, say in the 1950s and before.
I often wonder if MGTOW in its current state is truly permanent, or do you think it could be a case of 'we are done...until current conditions change...'

I guess this depends on the age of the person who is being asked this question. If one is 40 when the conditions change, I guess a man is young enough to re-enter the SMP. When one is 70, I guess not so much?

Yes there are enough men to continue the species as you say.
This suggests that MGTOW does not include any kind of sexual contact with women at all. I find it hard to fathom that this is sustainable for the entirety of a man's life. Given that marriage is not required for children to happen, I am sure MGTOWs are still contributing to the gene pool :-)
But...the quality of such 'flings' or 'mini-relationships' may be unsatisfactory for both parties...just a guess.

If women show some decorum first, and men follow suit, much of society's ills would be solved, I am sure...

Are you a man who wishes for things to improve, or are you happy to 'enjoy the decline' as they say?

I ask because it seems to me that a certain 'lethargy' has descended on all of us. I can understand why this happens, but interested to know if this is reversible in individual cases...

Anonymous said...

Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. That's a lot of questions and difficult ones at that; I'll try my best, but please bear in mind that these are the viewpoints of one individual and do not reflect the collective consensus.

I don't know what future holds, but I personally don't think MGTOW would affect women’s lifestyle at all. That of course is predicated on the assumption the prevalent anti male hysteria doesn’t go to extreme proportions and throw men en masse to MGTOW lifestyle. For all the talk about gender warfare, we are just trying to live and let live, keeping the damage to all men to a minimum via dissemination of information. Plus, women now have ever increasing legally and socially sanctioned privileges at the expense of men, and they have found the perfect tool to continue the exploitation: victimization. I don’t think they would jeopardize that in negotiation with MGTOW community, who unlike the MRAs, deem a fair dialogue implausible.

I wouldn’t say I rejoice in the descent of the society like the apathetic PUAs, nor am I going to do anything to reverse it. Not because I am not willing, but because I think it’s inevitable.

Traditional marriage just furthers male disposability. Ergo, it would not be a viable solution. As for the stigma, well the shaming tactics are always there, of course when the death and genital mutilation threats fail to take effect. The best thing about MGTOW in my opinion is it’s unapologetic. We discuss various traits of both sexes without worrying about PC. The results are remarkable. I share with you one such breakthrough. You argued that animalistic interactions with the opposite sex might be unsatisfactory. Well, you have no idea how right you are. For men, it’s far deeper and crucial than it appears and it dwarfs the sexual desire. It’s the need for a mother figure to dispense love and protection unconditionally. We are utterly terrified of the thought of being alone. That’s the deepest most genuine urge behind space exploration. That’s why current technology is becoming obsessed with social communication means. The hardest part, the red pill if you will, is to understand this need within and realize it is a quest for fool’s gold. The cognitive dissonance enervated by this realization is staggering. Fortunately, there exist a plethora of alternatives such as intellectual pursuit which arguably is just as strong a desire quite capable of abating the repercussions of said realization. Nevertheless, not until you accept the cold hearted truth can you move on. I personally do not engage in sex and have not for the last year, but I think there is a weak possibility that it is just a transitory phase. I believe shunning sexual relationships is not viable in the long run, considering current technological advances.

Also, I believe MGTOW is far from being an ephemeral lifestyle regardless of age. First, any tangible change in the balance of power seems a little farfetched for the foreseeable future. Second, although the passive aggressive reactions of MGTOWs are a way of protesting current affairs, we are subconsciously evolving and maturing beyond what we once believed and yearned for as an ideal lifestyle. Internet has allowed us to share our experiences and perceptions, and patterns are emerging from this pool. Once you pierce the veil and see behind the curtain, it’s somehow difficult to ignore it. I don’t think the way we see our opposite sex or even our so called blue pill fellow men for that matter would change by actions of a group of individuals.

Spacetraveller said...

Wow, Anonymous,

Thank YOU for sharing.
May I say, not only the content of your comment, but also your very eloquent style of writing impresses me greatly.

You know, I frequently hear from men (in real life and also here on this blog and on Manosphere blogs) that men do not fear being alone. I do blelieve this, and I see that male nature can be just fine alone, and indeed many men crave solitude, at least from time to time.
This is in sharp contrast to women, who really do need company, even the most introverted ones.

But I also think, "but men are human too", surely being alone cannot be *that* enjoyable for long periods of time?

But as you explain beautifully, it is a question of mind over matter. If companionship is so fraught with all the dangers consequent to bad womanhood, as is the case to a high degree these days, then one MUST find an alternative to companionship with a woman, so other pursuits MUST be used to stave off this basic human need. I get that, but of course immensely saddened that so many fellow human beings are forced to go a different route to what they may have envisioned for themselves originally.
We all have crosses to bear, sure. But some crosses are indeed worse than others. I sympathise with people who face a lifetime of (potential) solitude.

I have often focussed on single women when I say things like 'it is women who need to right the ship first, then men might be persuaded to follow suit', but I think I am perhaps wrong (i.e. incomplete) with this idea. Many MGTOWs are perhaps reacting rationally to divorce and its bad effects happening in the generation (or two) above theirs.

To this effect, those who are married now could perhaps make a difference?

I was at a dinner party last week with friends, and the wife (married almost 20 years) stunned me by announcing to us guests that she 'was never attracted to her husband in the first place'. I saw the hurt on the husband's face. I don't think I shall ever forget that look. The rest of the evening, he would take pot shots at the wife, and she would retaliate. It was sad, because I always thought they were 'solid'. I need to find time and have a little chat with the wife (she is a friend) because I don't think she realised how much she hurt her husband. Even if HE had hurt her before, what she did was 1) public, and 2) really mean. I hope she was lying about not being attracted to him (they met when they were teenagers).
This is the sort of thing that a lot of men complain about on Manosphere blogs. So if married women are aware of these infringements they commit that are highly damaging, perhaps the divorce rate can be markedly reduced...?

I thank you for your comment once again. I hope your aspirations are fulfilled, whatever they may be.

Mortan40175 said...

I've found over the 35 years of my life that while I have experienced both positive and negative situations with women. I had an abusive mother, interestingly a self proclaimed feminist, And I enjoy a very pleasant post divorce relationship with my ex wife. So I would say my personal experience runs the gambit. I would like to be able to say that any of these reasons were the primary reason for my choice to simply walk away from society but they aren't. I chose to do this simply because I came to the realization as I looked at the world and where it was headed that I no longer had any connection to it. I simply feel nothing for humanity any longer. There are precious few people that I hold any emotional context towards. Primarily my son, and by default his mother. I honestly worry how much worse things will be for him than they are for me with the current direction of the world. I almost feel a need to build a house on some far off mountain somewhere and take him with me away from this world just to keep him safe. I don't really know if it's all fixable or not. More so because I feel far too many people simply don't see a problem as they continue to push more and more laws and expectations on the rest of us. Sure, I'll admit women had a rough go in areas over the years. But I think it's being entirely too overcompensated. All this war of the sexes has managed to do is alienate everyone from each other. It's become difficult for any sane person to actually believe that there is a such thing as an honest caring person to spend their lives with. I have enjoyed reading all of your posts and comments ST. It's nice to see someone like you is still out there in the world. I hope more of you spring up on both sides of the field before it's too late for all of us. I think though for some of us? It may well already be too late.

Anonymous said...

MGTOW, mostly, does not apply to the college educated, who marry at higher rates and divorce at lower rates than any other group. High paid men want to marry women in their own fields who make high pay. I see it all the time. Men in labor unions who make high wages also marry more. Not marrying is for the poor and the poor economic situation they find themselves in. You can't afford to marry and you don't attract women who make high salaries. You then demonize women because they are doing better than you. The new rich class... Equals of equal salary and education marrying each other. Teachers marrying cops. Both with good equal salaries... and together live a better life financially. Male teachers marry female teachers. Male doctors no longer marry the nurse, as they have tons of female doctors to choose from. Not one female doctor goes unmarried, unless that is what she wants. I've seen the most unattractive of female doctors get married to male doctors. Why? Male doctors want their salaries to combine. Admit it, MGTOW is for poor men with no prospects. Given that college educated men marry at high rates and divorce at lower rates than other men, well shows that MGTOW isn't for them. They find their equal. Today, nurses, teachers and executive secretaries make a lot of money. It's not just women scientists or engineers, etc. A woman can own a beauty parlor and bring in a good deal of money. MGTOW's can't compete or they wouldn't have a need for this pathetic excuse for a group... with almost no members.

Live Free or Die said...

I do think that a lot of the manosphere is reactionary in terms of men getting hit by the realities of divorce and in the sense of tradcons who can't compete in the modern sexual market place.

Therefore lot of the reactions of people in the manosphere are bitter and resentful, but I am happy go lucky.

Here is why I'm a MGTOW.

1. I don't get lonely.
2. I don't want to marry.
3. I don't want to cohabit.
4. I don't want to have kids.
5. I control my time.
6. I control my money.
7. Compromise is a dirty word to me.

Here is a summary of my days:

I'm in my late 20s. I wake up at noon. I work on the computer running my Internet businesses. I'm in tip-top shape. If it is nice out, I'll go for a hike or play tennis in the middle of the day.

All the money I earn is mine. I have no debt of any kind. I paid for my house with a duffel bag of cash. I paid for my cars in cash.

I don't have a care in the world. I control my time, my money, and my activities. No one in the world can tell me what to do.

I don't see any way that a woman can improve my life.

Life is Good!

Live Free or Die!

Spacetraveller said...

Mortan40175,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

Thanks for your comment. Although it is not easy, it is great to hear that you still have a pleasant relationship of sorts with your ex-wife. That already is a great bonus. Many divorced parents report anger/bitterness that feeds onto their child(ren) and this is of course not good.

This 'disconnection' to the world you speak of, this is something I hear A LOT from MGTOWs. And I can see it is not anger, it is not bitterness, it is not hate. It is simply a complete lack of emotion about the world.

Can I be honest - this is a frightening thing for me to hear, personally (please note that I am speaking purely from a female point of view here).
I can honestly say to you that I have NEVER felt completely detached from ANYTHING in my life. Whatever it is, I have some emotion to it, good or bad.
So, two thoughts:
1) It is possible that all my further thoughts on this are completely flawed from your point of view, because I am unable to relate to this absolute lack of emotion you describe.

But, assuming you are able to listen further to what I have to say on the subject...

2) It is frightening to women (including me) because we sense it cannot be 'normal'. Um, this is solipsism for ya, lol.
But in all seriousness, suppose a woman who cares for you knows this about you (your detachment from the world, I mean). She may get worried about the state of your mental health, because she may feel that because it is not 'normal' for her, it cannot be normal for you! (Again, solipsism, but there ya go :-) So, the best reaction you may get froma woman about this, is...'he's gotta be crazy'. This may be a protective/reflex reaction, because otherwise, how can we believe that it is possible for someone to completely unplug from the world? Do you see what I mean? Selfishly, we women need EVERYONE to be plugged into the system. If someone isn't, we get all twitchy and wonder if he is going to be one of those guys who picks up a gun and shoots everyone in sight, ala Elliot Rodger...
See how nervous the word 'disconnection' can make a woman feel?
(I am being brutally honest here/playing 'Devil's Advocate', so I am being as blunt as possible...perhaps also exaggerating, lol).

Spacetraveller said...

3) This 'disconnection', (of which I already admit I know nothing about, as I don't feel it myself), is it something you can live with, or is it something you want gone? Would you wish for the perpetrators of this 'disconnection' i.e. women (presumably) to 'make it go away', or are you completely happy as things stand?

See, I hear a lot from men on this post saying they are OK with things...
Fine, if that is true.
But if I know that this is purely 'bravado' (and hey, I get it, boys don't cry and all that) then it is such a shame that some men are simply refusing to speak up and are just suffering in silence. I lament the plight of 'The Quiet Man' in the post of the same name for a reason.
I get that pride is everything, but we women (who have no pride, lol), we prefer to 'let it all hang out' with the chance that the problem will get solved. This works brilliantly for us, so I feel that sometimes you men go through needless pain for your pride/honour...
But our biologies are different, so my thoughts on this issue may be irrelevant...

In general, I would disagree that women 'had it tough' under Patriarchy. Yes, a few unfortunate women did, but not the majority. And when 'life is tough' for any given woman, it is NOT because of Patriarchy, but more likely her own biology, menstruation problems, fertility issues, etc. These are not things we can blame on men, lol, but we sure do like to try :-).
And for sure I would agree that whatever 'toughness' women had, has been certainly well overcompensated, to the DETRIMENT of women, who are now not particularly protected anymore as they were before, under bad, bad Patriarchy. It wasn't all rosy romance in them bad old days of Patriarchy, and everyone had to do their bit for society to 'work' but when people did this, society DID 'work'. Now everything is falling apart, because men and women are fighting each other all the time, and life is no fun.

Thank you for your nice words regarding the blog. I too am not sure if it is too late or not, but I shall keep me fingers crossed and wait to find out :-). I think we will have an answer on this in the next few short years...

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous at 12:25AM; Dec 13,

You make a good point, in that yes, the UMC and college folk DO have it better in the SMP. For sure the men do, and many of the women do too...
I think Dalrock has consistently proved this with his stats...for example showing that divorce in this group is lower than for anyone else...

And yes, indeed, high status men are picking equally 'high status' women for marriage. I put inverted commas when I talk about high sttaus for women, because in the 'natural state', of course, high status in a woman SHOULD mean she is young, beautiful and fertile. Full stop. So something is happening which I don't fully understand here...

Perhaps the economic situation is forcing men to rethink marrying the young thing with the cute face but no chance of helping out with the finances...and as you say, we are talking about the UPPER echelons of society here, the very people who you would think don't need the extra income from their women!
These are strange features of the SMP that were once rare, but are becoming more and more apparent...

This is one of the reasons I still believe that education for women is a good thing, not a bad thing, in general... Bonus if she remains chaste and is prepared to prioritise family over the career when needed... It CAN be a win-win for such women in the SMP...

I do not share your disdain for MGTOW though. I see valid reasons why some men have to go this route. Like you say, a woman can earn money in ways that do not require a college degree, sure, and she can always use this money to help build a family with a man. If she isn't brow-beating him over the fact that he is not the ONLY provider in the family, there shouldn't be a problem. I get the whole hypergamy instinct in women ('cos I am subject to it, in all honesty) but there are practical ways round this, and I think not enough women are exploiting these options, so that their 'hypergamy' alarm doesn't go off...
Every problem has a sloution. You just got to find it...somehow.

Spacetraveller said...

LFOD,

I know I tease you about your 'way off!' comments from time to time, but I gotta say, your life DOES sound idyllic, and even though I could not live it myself (and indeed many men also could NOT live the way you do), I am still slightly jealous...

Stop bragging about your paradise life, and we are cool :-).

Just kidding, lol. In all seriousness, I am truly happy for you that you have found your niche. I would have said you were 'lucky' if I didn't know otherwise: that you most likely have worked very hard to get where you are.
More grease to your elbow. Well done and enjoy the fruits of your hard labour.

Are you sure...? No, I won't ask...

Hahahahahahaha!
:P

Mortan40175 said...

SpaceTraveller,

I can't speak for everyone I can only speak for myself. Personally the disconnection I feel towards the world is a learned behavior. It's basically a form of self defense. As I had mentioned I grew up in a hostile environment. To the point I was on my own by the age of 14. Living on the streets was safer than living at home. So I think it stems greatly from that self preservation part of my survival instinct.

Will it every be fixable? I really don't know. Honestly, I'm not really sure I would want it to be. It's useful. By being disconnected to things for the most part I can view situations from a logical instead of emotional standpoint. Often times this keeps me out of horrible situations with other people and allows me to make a more rational choice when dealing with the things that happen in my life.

Do I feel it's perhaps beyond a norm? Certainly. But even with that having been said, and I don't regret it, I still wouldn't wish it on anyone else. I freely admit it limits and even damages my ability to form complete relationships with others on almost any level. I mean there are often times I wonder if even as a parent if I feel anything for my child. If nothing else, I feel a deep sense of responsibility towards him and sometimes that's enough.

To clarify something I never said I was ok with the state of the world today. I used to say it sadened me, Now I simply shrug and walk off. I actually expect the horrible treatment if that makes any kind of sense. And when you expect it, it's hard to be upset about it.

I hope this helped to shed some light on a few of your questions.
Thank you very much for the warm welcome and inclusion in the discussion. Hope you are having a great day.

Mortan40175 said...

SpaceTraveller,

I apologize, I just realized I didn't address what was probably one of the more important questions you asked me.

I'll address it now. While I do not feel an real emotion towards anyone or anything, I also have no desire to bring more pain into a world that is already far too full of it. I've lived in that fear. I guess you could say it broke me early. But having lived that way, I wouldn't do it to another. I understand all to well the damages it causes.

My son will never know what my life was because of this. I view his life as a chance to prove the cycle of neglect, abuse, and hate can be broken no matter how bad a parent was treated as a child. He lives a very happy and "normal" childhood where as his parents though divorced have ensured that he understands through him we are still a family. Children need that. This is the reason his mother and I get along better now than when we were married. We weren't good for each other, but together we are good for him. Just not together under the same roof. I hope this helps to relieve a bit of the worry about the possibility of my "going postal" in the future. In the end, I don't like small spaces shared with other men.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Mortan,

Thank you for answering my questions. This is a deep topic and I appreciate you explaining how it feels to be in this place you describe. I really do.

I see that you have reconciled yourself to this situation. I find it highly commendable, and therefore admire this quality, as I know I could not do it myself. I freely admit I am quite cowardly when it comes to emotions. Can't live without them for long. :-)

I think your son will be just fine. :-) He has a father who cares about him, and sees him often (I presume). This is gold dust in today's culture where so many boys are separated from their fathers.
Bravo for this.

About 'going postal', sorry for putting that out there. It is an automatic/knee jerk response which is very difficult to eradicate. Look at it as a defence mechanism. I think this instinct is particularly strong in women, perhaps for good reason. But in this context, it does seem a bit harsh. Sorry for that.

Stoicism, which you exhibit so well is truly a wonderful trait to have. There must be a reward in of itself in just having this trait. I am sure of it!
Have a great day too.

Mortan40175 said...

@ SpaceTraveller

I can honestly say I enjoy having this conversation with you. It's becoming harder and harder to find open minded people to have a reasonable talk with without someone getting offended or feeling they need to defend themselves. With that in mind, I would like to ask you a question and give you both something to think about and see what your take on it is.

As we have been discussing there are a great many reasons why a man may be emotionally unavailable, Distant, and even just numb to the world and the people in it. So in the spirit of that. Have you considered the idea that in someways our lack of emotion balances out a good deal of over emotion of others? Life and nature both do tend to work in a form of balance when people aren't busy trying to unbalance the scales. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Always a pleasure and thank you for the compliments.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Mortan,

I also thoroughly enjoy this discussion. I must admit, it was initially one of those that took me quite abruptly out of my 'comfort zone' (scary for me emotionally) but I am getting used to it now :-).

"As we have been discussing there are a great many reasons why a man may be emotionally unavailable, Distant, and even just numb to the world and the people in it. So in the spirit of that. Have you considered the idea that in someways our lack of emotion balances out a good deal of over emotion of others?"

Very good question! And the honest answer is, no I hadn't thought of that...

But now you mention it, it reminds me of the necessity sometimes to use even what we see as a 'negative' to our advantage, i.e. turn it into a 'positive'. So before I go on, here comes another compliment your way :-)
You are making my heart sing, lol!

Indeed you are right, Mortan. Let me tell you that because I am quite introverted, even I fail to see the extent of extroversion and extreme 'connection' and emotionality that exists on 'planet woman' because I don't always reside there, lol.
(But this is considered 'normal for me' because I have always been like this, even in childhood, so no-one expects any better of me, and - importantly - there has been no 'sudden change', so I get away with it. All my life, I have been 'slightly unusual', lol, and this is the polite version :-) I 'live in my head' a lot).

Why am I telling you this?
It is because I somtimes miss the wood for the trees. So whilst I still act on my emotions more than you, as a man, (I am willing to bet!) I also know that I am not particularly 'typical' on this score.

But I must say, when I get a eyeful or headful of extroversion, (which typically comes from women) even I (as a fellow woman) need to flee to get my 'fix' of introversion to recover, lol.
Yes the extroversion and the 'in touch with the feelings' phenomenon we see all around us in this era is a bit too much, no? Oprah Winfrey is a good example of this. That woman is perhaps too 'in touch' with the world, lol.

(Side thought: perhaps the rise of the internet has aided this explosion in extroversion/exhibitionism we see in the form of endless 'selfies' and Facebookism? The other side of the coin is that this same internet has caused an increase in introverted behaviour too - many bloggers for example, are natural introverts...)

I think you are onto something here...

Spacetraveller said...

Nature has a way of 'balancing out' things, for sure. We see this in birth rates of boys relative to girls, for instance. It is said that in hard/impoverished times, more girls than boys are born - very interesting hypotheses as to why this might be, by the way - and this is rapidly corrected when the good times come along, when we see an upward shift in boy births relative to girl births.

We cannot all be 'in yer face extroverted' and full on 'sociable'. There is only so much a world can take. And afterall, someone needs to be the audience, the silent 'observers' as I like to call them...

Most men, who are naturally more introverted than most women, are the natural 'takers' of this position of 'watcher', it would seem. Bearing in mind that this 'watcher' needs to be a little detached, otherwise he is part of the 'performance' so to speak, yes, it makes sense to me, what you say.

However, as long as men who take up this role have some benefit from it (i.e. they derive some pleasure, or at the very least, peace) in this role, then why not?

The sociables, the extroverts, they are enjoying themselves to the fullest.
The introverts, the slightly 'outlawed', are they enjoying their lot in life?

We gotta be fair.

So I turn the question back to you (hey, you asked for it, lol): do you like to be in this role? If you are left in peace to do as you like, would you choose it anyway, and be happy with your decision?

In many ways, Mortan, your question to me begs another question: to you personally, I would phrase it thus: if you did not have an abusive mother, if you were not divorced from your wife, would you still be slightly 'disconnected' anyway because it is your Male Nature?

And for men in general, even if the SMP hadn't become as poisoned as it is, is there not a possibility that you would still not be 'plugged into society' as much as women are, simply because you do not 'own' the social domain because you 'own' something else AKA the civilisation domain, and THAT is your main concern, not what is on the 'social arena'?

In other words, is 'disonnection' Nature or Nurture?

I would be more at peace to learn that this male 'disconnection' is just who you are as men. That would be cool.

My alarm/fright/dismay/heartsink is partly due to my (selfish) feminine interpretation of the situation as 'oh my God, he is 'disconnected', help! People like this are DANGEROUS!' - and for sure you got a dose of this in my first comment to you... :-)

But a more subtle response from me (and women in general) relates to the possible association between you (men) being this way because of what we (women) have collectivley done to you. In your case, you mention an abusive mother and a divorce (and whether this is the case or not, I hear 'she divorced me!' or even worse 'she divorced me for no good reason and took all my stuff too!) in which case, there is an element of...guilt/regret/empathy and indeed compassion, which may actually increase my alarm/fright/dismay/heartsink response depending on which way my hamster decides to swing :-)

*sigh*
I suspect my circular thinking on this might come to a big fat nought though, for this simple reason: I don't think your father and grandfather (or mine) were this disconnected from society, even if they were less 'sociable' than the women around them. So I think I have my answer to my own question, and it ain't 'Nature'.

So now that my attempt to plead with you to 'make it (feminine guilt for masculine pain) to go away!' have fallen flat on its face, how can we salvage some dignity for womanhood?

I am listening, Mortan.
I would like to hear your manifesto for women.
In an ideal world, what would make you 'reconnect' back to the world, assuming this was even a possibility, or a choice you might consider making?





Mortan40175 said...

@ Spacetraveller,

Lol well you have certainly given me something to really think about. Thank you, that's pretty rare these days. I find most people would prefer to remain silent and just 'go with the flow' rather than take the chance that deep thought and make a change in their lives.

Now that having been said, I cannot meet this challenge without giving up a bit more information about myself as a person. While usually I make it a point to avoid this, I feel in this discussion it's safe and necessary in order for you to understand my answers to all of this.

I'll start with clearing up things about my marriages. I've had two, the first I was young in love (or so I thought) and was ultimately stupid. I married a younger angrier version of my mother and paid that price with my life. Literally.

Our Divorce came more from not remembering her than from much else at the time. (I was in a bad car wreck that killed me and lost my memory for a time.) Over the years memories return. My second marriage wasn't for love, it was because we both needed each other. While I can honestly say I was never 'in love' with her I do even now still love and care about her. Our divorce stemmed simply from us realizing that we wanted different things in this part of our lives. The divorce was a very pleasant one. She kept her stuff, We divided the mutual. I kept my stuff. We have joint custody of my son and I don't pay alimony or child support. But if she says he needs, I make sure he has. I even help her when she needs it. So it really is a pleasant experience I wish more couples could have.


Now for a part that matters most to what you asked.

I cannot honestly tell you if my feeling of disconnection is learned or nature. I really don't know the answer. The extreme abuse in my life started very early so I didn't have a chance to from and identity that wasn't based on just surviving my life.

People can say we aren't animals all day, but when the chips are down instinct will take over. Much like any animal abused too much I too became angry with a world that felt completely wrong to me. I didn't know why it did, but I always knew it was. My world of hate , pain, and abuse was something even being in it I couldn't wrap my mind about enough to justify it.

In the years of leaving home I have taken more the role of the 'audience' as you put it. I feel most comfortable watching the world from a safe distance. Life interests me. I learned early to read body language well and started gaining an understanding about human nature. Not as humans, but as the animals they claim they aren't. Viewing the world much like this tends to leave one alone. Am I happy? No, but I am content. I feel happiness is much like any other extreme emotion. It waxes and wanes based on the events of our lives.


Now that I have explained all of that. I feel you know enough about how I think and (feel for lack of a better word) about things. So the answer for you question comes from my personal outlook from that situation.

It goes like this.

"I would like to hear your manifesto for women.
In an ideal world, what would make you 'reconnect' back to the world, assuming this was even a possibility, or a choice you might consider making?"


As I view our world. (yes it is our world as we all share in it even if we don't want to) I came to understand things from an 'outside' prospective so to speak. Given I don't relate well to either sex, I see myself as being apart from them on the whole.

The 'guilt' runs the gambit I'm afraid. Women alone cannot fix the problems, but they can do a lot to help. You cannot change a person. Very true words. Deep down they will still be themselves. As much as I hate to just throw blame on any one thing in this case it fits. Feminism has done a great deal to damage the relationship between men and women.

Mortan40175 said...

Now I realize that while that statement may be fair, it's also a bit unfair, but I'll get to all of that in a moment. First why it's fair.

When women became empowered "girl power" as you will it neglected a very important aspect that men have always known and women have rarely had to. Every act has a consequence. Men are taught by society and the male figures in our lives that we have to think about everything we do and how it will affect the world about us BEFORE we do it. We are taught to weigh both sides of it. Not to view everything as personal gain but what will benefit the most people the most often.

Sort of a "Can't make everyone happy all the time , but you can make most content" kind of outlook. We are taught to defend and care for our families and that that one act is our highest calling. A good father is priceless in the eyes of his child and a good amount of society.

This leads to part 1 of my answer to you. The women of today must top trying to destroy or make expendable the father role. Even their daughters lose when this happens. "Daddy's little girl" didn't just come around, it's been true since the dawn of time. A man she knows she can love and respect who will always nurture and care for her. She looks for this person in a potential husband. Most who have good fathers go on to find good men and live a happy life.

I just realized this is getting rather long and I am sorry. I'll try and shorten it some.

Mortan40175 said...

Women need to learn to take responsibility. They are not all "victims" in society preyed on at every moment of their lives by every man around them and some secret organization bent on destroying all women. Interesting, Looking at that thought written just made me realize that it makes women out to sound paranoid. I guess though if you look at our world I'm not completely off my mark. Though I often want to ask people why women suddenly feel like this in a world has been pretty much the same for a really long time. Bad people have always existed, bad things have always happened. So why suddenly the new paranoia at every man? Perhaps a question for another debate elsewhere. But you see what I'm getting at. Take responsibility for their own choices and stop blaming all men when it doesn't work out.

I think those two main points would do a great deal to repair the damages done, as it would cover so many things given they are rather broad in their fields. And interestingly enough, both are as easy as making a choice.

Mortan40175 said...

I am sorry again for how long this got, but I hope it in some way answers you question even if to a degree. The final part I'll address is. Even if this changed, I honestly don't know if I even could reconnect to a world that I began to see as the enemy from an early age, and simply feels wrong to me even as an adult.

Spacetraveller said...

Mortan,

Please don't apologise for long comments. My (female) brain likes them!

I appreciate the in-depth dissection of this topic. Thank you.

One thing that especially pleases me is your contentment. More and more, I think contentment is what we should all be aiming for, rather than 'happiness' which is fleeting. Contentment is better. I think too many women aim for 'happy' and when this doesn't materialise, they go on these 'personal self-fulfilment' journeys, seek 'feel-good' activities/adventures that do no good in the end. Contentment is more of an inner personal journey that you can undertake in your own living-room, on the bus or in your office. Cheaper and more lasting, lol.
Language helps me in this logic: I like that we usually reply 'fine' or 'zufrieden' (satisfied) or 'contento' (content) to the everyday question 'how are you?'
During times we are elated about something, we may express this in our reply to the question 'how are you?', sure, but we usually just say things are OK, don't we...That in itself is a small fortune in terms of emotional stability.
It is a good thing, being content.
Too many of us want 'ecstasy' all the time. No wonder we live disappointed lives!

I am so grateful for your manifesto. This is what I wish more men would do for us women. Civilise us!

For example, this victimhood you speak of. Yes, I admit that there is too much of that on Planet Woman. Some victimhood is OK, I guess, but we overdo it, for sure. You men cannot afford to be victims because you have civilisation to keep ticking on, so your perspective on life is more of 'deal with it, move on', and this is something we women can learn from you. So thank you for this.

About taking personal responsibility, feminism has all but removed the concept of personal responsibility from women's lives, yes. This is deplorable, because this actually increases our sense of victimhood!

Look at this cacophony with the 'rape culture' phenomenon. Feminists are actually encouraging women to feel entitled to the right to dress provocatively, be intoxicated and enter areas where they will be vulnerable, and yet EXPECT not to have bad consequences from this. What bad advice! Wouldn't it be wiser to reduce the risk yourself rather than expect forces outside of you to do that for you...
*sigh*

If women are moral agents just as much as men are - which I believe, but I am dismayed that many men do not believe this :-( - then women should be accountable in the same way as men are. Granted, the issues women and men are accountable for are different, but the acountability is still there. I actually think that accountability is the perfect solution to the victimhood problem, no?
If you are perpetually helpless, and have no sense of accountability, well, you WILL be perpetually a victim! Guaranteed!


Spacetraveller said...

I actually wonder why feminists push the agenda of losing personal responsibility for women. Is it to keep women perpetually in a state of child-like ignorance? Isn't this misogyny??
You talk about 'animal instincts'. Well I think the first of these in humans is 'self-preservation'. I remember having this conversation with another commenter (Lonely Himalayan Bear) about this. So if your disconnection is for your own 'self-preservation', then this is entirely normal!
(See? I have come full circle on this. Resolution :-)

Mortan, whilst it is not easy for a woman to refuse to see herself as a victim and for her to take personal responsibilty for her own actions, I think it is possible, even with outside forces like the government/the laws showering women with incetives to 'take the low road' as it were, in the form of welfare for single mothers, divorce 'reward' for women, etc.

It is easy when one realises that the initial 'ecstasy' of these worldly rewards are ephemeral. Taking the high road on these matters leads to a more permanent state of ....you guessed it, contentment.

I shall think about contentment in the next few days. Perhaps I could come up with a way to 'sell' it to the unbelievers? Or maybe you could help me with this task - how can we make contentment more 'sexy' in a world that demands 'ecstasy' at the touch of a button?
:-)

Mortan40175 said...

@ SpaceTraveller,

I took some time to consider the question you posed to me. I racked my brain trying to figure it out and I'm afraid the answers aren't very favorable to this cause.

The simple answer is, you can't.

We grow up hearing "live life to the fullest" "go forth and become something great" "Find happiness and the world will be perfect" "Find that perfect person that you can be happy with the rest of your life"

sadly for our generation and pretty much any generation that's older than 10 years old we are doomed on the idea. Our minds have already been too corrupted. Now that age group there is where the change happens. Stop telling them to seek happiness and tell them to seek peace. Stop telling them that marriage is a fairy take disney ending and tell them it's a partnership and takes a lot or work. That if both people put forth equal effort, there will be happy times, but overall, you can be content.

Adults are already to far gone and don't even get me started on this wave of teens. So overall I think that's the best answer I can give. It's not marketable, but it is teachable to those not already ruined by the instant gratification of our society today.

Mortan40175 said...

@ Spacetraveller

I had a thought today as I was reading my way along the internet. I was reading on the MGTOW and the completely insane attacks these men were facing mostly from women. It was during the reading of one of these rants that it struck me. Shouldn't women be happy that men are GTOW?

As we have been discussing I can see their point of view to a degree bu then a simple and logical question hit me that really struck home. Given the experiences of most MGTOWs wouldn't the better choice to be go our own way rather then view women as an enemy that needs to be crushed? Has anyone stopped to consider that if men liked women when they were "Subjugating", What would it be like if men suddenly decided that females were an enemy instead of something to be protected?

I couldn't think of anywhere else I could ask this question and get a female thought that wouldn't get me screamed at. I would love to hear your take on these sudden thoughts.

Spacetraveller said...

Mortan,

Happy New Year to you and family!

Your comment at 11.32PM Dec 17 is pure gold. If I could turn it into poster and stick it all over town, I would.
Yes, we are deeply corrupted in this current world. We have become so jolly entitled, we are not allowed to go through periods of hardship anymore, because 'we deserve HAPPINESS! Marriage is something we have to work at? Nonsense! We deserve to be HAPPY every single day of our married lives!
This mindset is what is killing us, and I see that this entitlement is coming more from women than men, although I also see that men are catching up too.
Now, don't get me wrong. I am not masochistic, and I am not saying we should be miserable all the time. But a little pain sometimes helps us to see the big picture clearer, doesn't it?
In this sense, the self-flagellating people (cough, cough, Catholics, lol) do have a point...
Thank you for your sensible words. I hope anyone reading them will pay heed to them, as indeed I will in my own life.

As to your comment from 8:38PM Dec 20...
Well, that was my exact thought process when I wrote this post!
My feeling was, something had gone horribly wrong between men and women, and MGTOW was a (finite) process through which men 'adapted' to the situation, i.e. our current SMP crisis put men into a second 'initiation' process in much the same way as boys went through their first initiation, meaning the transition from boy to man. With this in mind, I concluded that though lamentable, this second initiation was perhaps a good thing for women, because it also forced women to re-evaluate the situation on a large scale...whilst they waited, and waited, and waited for the men to return to the plantation, so to speak. In other words, women too would be forced into an 'initiation' of their own, and thus would appreciate the men more when they came back from wherever they went.

But alas, this train of thinking was seen as 'fanciful' by a great many commenters. Many men commented that I had got it wrong for many reasons, most of which are valid, and I have come full circle to agree with them on this. For a start, the initiation theory really irked some of them, because it implies that women can force men into 'initiation'. I can now understand why this is inherently wrong. The kind of initiation that is 'good' for a man is one that he willingly takes on himself, or it is imposed on him by a society of elder men, not by women of any age. The former represents true masculinity, the latter makes a mockery of manhood.

Spacetraveller said...

So I have since backtracked on my thinking on this, and MGTOW in general. It could be good for women, but now I got no way of explaining why :-)

Except of course to explain it as some sort of self-fulfiling prophecy in response to 'women need men like fish needs bicycles' in which case, problem solved!
But any sane adult knows that women do need men (and not vice versa) especially those women who want or have children, which is the majority of women. These women, the bedrock of society, do need men not only for themselves but for the children (ESPECIALLY for the children) and not just the temporary 'baby daddy' variety. Without this, society breaks down, as we are seeing...

So other than this explanation, I would say that MGTOW overall is bad for women, but then again, either that is the point, or it just happens to be the side effect, rather than the main agenda. But to look at it in this one-sided manner puts me at risk of 'selective blindness' in the sense that we must not forget that some MGTOWS are not this way out of choice - they have been forced into a situation they may not have chosen for themselves had they had full control of the situation. So the other question is, is MGTOW good for them as well? They may not need a woman in the same way a woman needs a man, but is the entirety of life just about 'needs'? Whatever happened to a legitimate 'want' like haing a nice lady to share your life with without fear of finding yourself in a very precarious position one day because the laws allow it?
Lamentable situation and I feel so sorry for men who live this realty, or who WILL live this reality one day on a whim. Life was not designed by God to be like this. Life should be better than this, for both men and women...

Anon said...

Apparently, you are satisfied with the status quo. I don't blame you for trying to defend the current system especially if it is working grossly in your favor. This is not a faux blog because many men AND women are not satisfied with the status quo. How can prove this? Well, you may want to check out the books, "The Manipulated Man" by Esther Vilar and "Men on Strike- "Why men are boycotting marriage" by Helen Smith. These books are written by women. In addition, you may want to do more research on MGTOW to see that there many supporters.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anon,

Thank you for your comment. The status quo is far from 'satisfying' to me. Which is why I spend hours thinking about the status quo and writing about it. The day I am 'satisfied' with the status quo, there would be no need for a blog like this one. Faux or not.
I am aware of both the books you mention.
They are indeed enlightening books, which shed light on this topic in a useful way, yes. Dr. Smith's book is especially relevant to the multifactorial nature of today's messed up SMP.

Just out of interest, how do you conclude that I am satisfied with the status quo? I am curious...and a little surprised.

Mortan40175 said...

ST,
Happy New Year to you and yours as well. I hope that you holidays were everything you wanted them to be.

I was reading over your response to my last posts and thinking about all the research I've been doing as well lately, when something you said really struck me.

So the other question is, is MGTOW good for them as well? They may not need a woman in the same way a woman needs a man, but is the entirety of life just about 'needs'? Whatever happened to a legitimate 'want' like haing a nice lady to share your life with without fear of finding yourself in a very precarious position one day because the laws allow it?
Lamentable situation and I feel so sorry for men who live this realty, or who WILL live this reality one day on a whim. Life was not designed by God to be like this. Life should be better than this, for both men and women...

I think that in it's base sense actually shows you the true problems in a nutshell. People have forgotten the definition of need and want. We need air, water,and food. That's it. Without those three things we die. We can live without anything else except those three things. Now will life be happy? No probably not. But you can live. Maybe the real answer is people need to start understanding their wants better instead of assuming everything is a need.

Spacetraveller said...

Ah but Mortan,

I am going to 'bat for the other side' now :-)

I think it is perfectly reasonable to have THIS particular want - a lifelong partner of the opposite sex (erm, am I projecting? Surely it is not just women who want this!). I agree with you that it is not a 'need' but surely it is a very natural 'want' and an important one at that. The tragedy is that a lot of men have done nothing wrong and still don't get this 'want'.
I know this flies in the face of our previous conversation about 'contentment' but I am coming from the basis that a lifelong partner should be at least *potentially* on the cards for most men. But this is currently not the case. The majority of women will still find a suitable partner for marriage if they want, but this is not the case for men, even though it is men who are the gatekeepers of marriage/commitment. This game is heavily rigged against men. Hence my heartfelt sympathy. The only men who could easily survive this game are those who are genuinely just fine and dandy without female company. Let's hope that this proportion of men is much higher (genuinely so) than I suspect. It is one thing to be fine being alone. Which I think most men can manage quite well (better than women). But quite another to be devoid of female contact socially or sexually for life. I am keeping my eyes peeled for data on the Japanese herbivores who seem to have started on this journey much earlier in life than would seem plausible. Same with the new crop of millenial MGTOWS. The older MGTOWS will be fine, I think, simply because they have life experiences behind them which informed their decisions. The younger ones are reacting to life experiences they have not lived themselves. That's a scary move... albeit a rational one.

Mortan40175 said...

SpaceTraveller,
I actually agree with you. It's a reasonable want. One that I'm afraid is a bit outdated in this day and age. I ran into another rather interesting lady the other day on a chat program. We got to discussing feminism and what it's become vs what it was. She was a second waver. Oddly enough looking at what it's become has caused her to feel the need to apologize to men for the damages her good intentions have done over the past 30 years or so.

I'll be honest. You make a concern for the next generation of boys GTOW without our life experiences. I think what you may not have taken into account is that not all experiences have to be gone through to be learned from. With the schools, marriage , and women of today,these young men are learning by seeing it every day. I guess something along the lines of seeing someone else setting themselves on fire, and realizing it's not in your best interest. Some lessons we can learn by watching the mistakes of the ones that came before us.

Spacetraveller said...

Mortan,

True enough: one doesn't need to put one's hand in fire to know that it will burn.
The situation is wretched in toay's SMP, yes.

Perhaps the only joy to be had is from small pockets of society where people do what is right just because. Perhaps the 'Mark Minter' effect will kick in when such small pockets of good women are encountered by the young guys of today (who are themselbves of good character). Otherwise, they will keep themselves to themselves (go MGTOW). Which is fair enough, but what a fate if it is not 'by choice'!

I am really hoping for a breakthrough…

Perhaps this will materialise in our lifetime, Mortan! I hope so!

Mortan40175 said...

To be perfectly honest with you, for the sake of my own son, I really do hope that what you propose happens. The world is in a sad state, and none of this really helps anyone. It's easy for us older guys to step away, self defense for the most part. And as much as I hate to say it, And in agreeing with something you said earlier, Some suffering is a good thing. Our young men aren't learning that. I feel they need at least a taste or they could never truly appreciate their choice to walk away.

It's like a friend of mine some years ago. He was a little brother to me. So when he got his first girlfriend, even though I knew she was bad for him, I encouraged him. Let him fall for her with no warning, knowing she fully intended to take him for a ride. In the end, she broke his heart as I knew he would. Later he asked if I had known from the start that she would do that, why didn't I stop him. My answer was simple. If you have never seen the bad, how can you see the good and appreciate it when it's in front of you?

Anonymous said...

I found this page because I was googling "MGTOW" to find out what this unfamiliar acronym meant that I found in the title of very bitter sounding YouTube video that popped up in my "related video" suggestions while watching some stand up comedy. Reading some of the comments here made me realize it's just a new way to say "sour grapes" for socially awkward dudes that never learned how to talk to women. Thanks for clearing that up, fellas.

Spacetraveller said...

Mortan,

Oh yes, I see your point. What's done is already done.

Now we should be in 'damage limitation' mode.
On to the next generation. Perhaps there could be a better outcome for them...


Anonymous @ Jan 24, 10:09 AM,

I am glad you found this page.

It is my opinion that your conclusion about this page is ... a little hasty. I do not judge you for that - it is a 'normal' reaction, frankly.
But I implore you to take a little more time to understand this MGTOW thing. You don't have to agree with it, or love it (I totally would understand why you might not!) but it is definitely worth attempting to UNDERSTAND it better.

Would you do this, just for me?
I think it might do something positive for you, like it did for me.

Good luck on the bumpy ride ahead :-) (should you choose to accept this 'mission impossible').

Mortan40175 said...

@ ST
One can only hope for a better future. The sad truth is that future will never be possible until people become a bit more like you and I. Open and willing to talk honestly without taking everything said personally. Both sexes desperately need some better dialogue between them in order for things to start moving in a more positive direction.

@ Anonymous
I'm sorry to see that you clearly didn't read a good amount of the comments here. This is clear by the rather harsh and almost degrading judgement you levied on a great many intelligent men. So since you don't want to actually read, I'll clarify. Most of us know how to speak to women. Most of us have been in long term relationships with them. Most of us simply feel the dangers of these relationships are far to great to enter into them again. We aren't harming anyone. We are simply choosing not to partake. There is a massive difference. As far as the "Sour grapes" comment. A majority of us are rather decent folks. We don't wish anyone harm, and don't want to be harmed. Good luck in your education and travels.

Ceer said...

You remind me of this from the Curt Jester...http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/2004/02/dial-log/

Live Free or Die said...

Happy MGTOW Day everyone!

No dinners bought today.
No jewelry bought today.
No flowers bought today.
No chocolate bought today.
No wine bought today.
No cards bought today.

No obligations to anyone or anything.

Live Free or Die!

Anonymous said...

Spacetraveler, you appear to be a very intelligent, intuitive and articulate woman that can think outside of the box. You are a rare breed that does not seem to have the need to conform to the prevailing gender social consciousness. I agree with the pendulum analogy in that the progress of humanity moves in cycles. I believe that this social cycle has reached the turning point and trends like MGTOW will gain momentum with little to no effort. You may have already answered this question, but could you tell me what compelled you to take an interest in MGTOW?

Spacetraveller said...

LFOD,

I did try to reply to your comment, but it turned out to be too long, so I turned it into a post all of its own. :-)

It will be up later today.


@ Anonymous at 6:26PM, Feb 14,

Wow, thanks for your sweet words!

May I say, it is not that I am into MGTOW per se. I am simply intrigued by it, as most women are, because it IS a matter of concern to women when a critical mass of men 'disappear' from view. :-) However, I DO understand why it has come into being in a big way. And I think it is indeed a good thing for some of its members. And I empathise with those for whom it is not really a choice, but a necessity.
What I will admit to more, is being a fan of men in general (which I must emphasise is not to say that I am an apologetic for the 'sins' of men - far from it - I just think that the 'sins' of men are too often highlighted in this modern world whilst the 'sins' of women are overlooked - to the detriment of everyone)...

Whilst it is true that this post has become the most popular post at The Sanctuary (and I think this is because more men than women read this blog - perhaps this blog is included as part of the 'Manosphere'?) MGTOW is not really my main focus. I concede that it is a BIG part of men's issues today, so of course it is a central part of the SMP, which is why I brought it up.

Sorry for the long-winded answer!
To answer a question you didn't actually ask, but which I feel is more pertinent, I first got into men's issues watching my beloved uncle (father's younger brother) go through a horrible divorce no-one saw coming, and a cousin who...is now known to be ..not genetically related to him.

Whilst I have always been a little 'outside of the box' so to speak, (yes, I am what most people would agree is introverted, introspective and intuitive - sadly not really intelligent or articulate, but thank you for implying I might be!) I began to pay closer attention to the SMP after this incident that tore my uncle's family apart. And little by little, things began to make sense. I am still not 100% of the way there yet, but shall we say mine eyes hath been opened, lol.

In the end, I think it s true of me that I like 'fairplay'. This current world is not practising 'fairplay' to men. This is why I appear to be on the side of men. Where I see injustices to women also, I pipe up about that too.

I like to think that men and women can be good to each other.

We can look out for each other, using our respective strengths for the benefit of the other, and downplaying the other's weaknesses.

My particular strength in this regard is that I can empathise. Even if it is all I can do, it issomething, no?
For me, this might be the first step into changing my life and perhaps others' for the better.

So perhaps this whole blog is one big empathy-fest.
:-)

Staid said...

@Anonymous regarding, your comment ‘new way to say “sour grapes” for socially awkward dudes’.
As Mortan40175 said, it is not about sour grapes. Many men who are MGTOW’s have elected to not partake in the destructive system.

I work full time, live on my own, pay my bills have a good credit score and can afford to do things for leisure (travel, dine out etc.). I have never married and do not have children. I am not indebted to child support or alimony. I am happy and live my life as I see fit. No sour grapes here.

I am not trying to be cocky or brag when saying this: I know how to talk to and have sex with women. I had to say that to prove a point. I have social skills and know how to get women but have simply opted out of the nonsense.

MGTOW is not about men who can’t get dates or have sex with women. MGTOW is about men choosing to live their lives in a positive manner and not accepting anything less.

Men have become aware of the covert manipulation used by many women to keep them on the plantation and they are instead opting out. Men going their own way (MGTOW) is not about misogyny; it is about men just not allowing themselves to be exploited by manipulative women and leaving them alone.

There are women that are known as NAWALT’s (Not all women are like that) that are not manipulators but they are a small minority. However, there are many NAWALT posers. True NAWALTS have little to worry about MGTOW’s.

I believe it is women who wish to maliciously manipulate men have reason to worry about MGTOW.

Manipulative women fear if the MGTOW philosophy spreads far enough the pool of men to exploit will greatly diminish.

Thus, they will use false and misleading propaganda such as: “MGTOW’s are men who can’t get dates or have sex with women.” and so on in an attempt to shame men back to the plantation. The scheme is very subtle. In short, they will do everything to denigrate men who opt out of being exploited or maliciously manipulated.

Spacetraveller said...

welcome to The Sanctuary Staid!

Your comment is very helpful for those who do not understand MGTOW.

Well done for explaining it, especially as one who lives it.

I hope Anonymous reads your comment and does further research on this subject.

Staid said...

Thank you Spacetraveller for the warm welcome and hosting this blog.

James T Kirk said...

All you "mig-towls" are lame. What is all this BS about "being forced from the village no one wanted me". You sound like a cry baby. How about stepping up and stop feeling sorry for yourself.

Ya'll act like you are doing some noble deed, but guess what... your not doing anything. You being a lame ass who has to create some grand quest just to feel better about your current state.

All this women vs man stuff is non-sense. "Mig-towl" and that loser Sandman is nothing but a bunch of lonely bologna. You really think denying women a couple suss pants [b]boys[/b] from being on the market place, is going to make them suddenly have a light bulb moment where they proclaim "oh my, I shouldn't be such a gold digger bitch"?

Your delusional, there will always be porn stars, strippers, goldiggers, ect, ect. But just because the decent good women are harder to find now days doesn't mean they aren't out there, or more importantly WORTH IT, your going against biology, you do realize that right?

You just have to elevate yourself to a higher level of self worth. That is how competition works, we are mere animals and the dynamic is constantly changing to conform with the current age.

Instead of being able to drag more food back from the kill to the village to demonstrate worth, it might be earning enough to support more than 1 kid in today's economy.

If you want a top shelf woman, you better work damn hard to be a top shelf man.

Its just the way things are.

False Rape??? If I see one more "mig-towl" claim that shit I'm going to punch the next beta male I run into in the face.

How about not fucking shitfaced tweenies at keggers and you won't have to worry about it.

You don't want to pay alimony, don't get married so goddamn quick.

I could go on and on but I am not going to because I feel lame enough as it is for even responding to the dumbasses in these comments.

But I will leave ya'll with this, MGTOW is code for "i'm weak and had to find a community of likewise crybaby weak boys to hold hands with and we came up with this crusade to make us seem noble and important because we aren't actually capable of being nobel and important."

Anonymous said...

It will be interesting now that the United States is allowing the enemy into the "Village" with open arms and the men are MGTOW and leaving the village will respond when these hostile invaders begin to pillage the village and show women why the village was built in the first place usually in a defensive position with women & children centralized so the men of the village could more easily defend the entire village in a smaller area. The United States is on the verge of an economic collapse and more and more hostile men from countries known to view women in degrading ways will capitalize on this coming economic failure. Women will then realize the worth of their men and seek our protection once again, but I ask you why should we bother they seemed to tainted with feminism to ever make a decent mate they are just too full of hate for men.

Live Free or Die said...

@ James T Kirk,

I'd suggest working on your anger and self-control issues before you worry about what other people are or are not doing.

Staid said...

@ James T. Kirk

Firstly, Mr. Kirk you raised a good point about biology. However, it is important that I point out that there are more functions of the brain other than just being in competition and pursing women.
The limbic brain is responsible for emotion and the prefrontal cortex is responsible for reasoning.

What I am saying is this: Whilst we men may have attraction to women, we still have the power of volition (choice) and reason to determine something is “good” or “bad”. Men are not programmed to automatically to jump on top of women just because they look good otherwise the laws on rape would be invalid.

Secondly, who are you or anyone to dictate that men are obligated to date, pursue, marry or have continuously sex with women? People have a right to choose to abstain regardless of their reasons. In the case of MGTOW’s, it happens to be their rejection of malicious manipulative women.

Thirdly, understand this: Even if I was to become millionaire or a billionaire I would still refuse to allow myself to be manipulated by predatory women. With large sums of money you will just attract larger number of manipulative women seeking to usurp your assets. As the old saying goes, “More money, more problems”.

Lastly, would you allow yourself to be manipulated by predatory women if were a millionaire or billionaire? Would you spend all of your millions or billions dollars on a woman and allow yourself to go completely broke in order to “conform to the current age?” Should men be castigated for refusing to allow themselves to be manipulated by predatory women?

As many of us know many people who have won millions of dollars only to end up broke because of making unwise decisions. I don’t know if wealth by itself can make men impervious to the manipulation of predatory women.

(SEE, “Man Blows $33 Million in Lottery Winnings by Spending 459 Straight Days at the Bunny Ranch”
http://www.outhousedaily.com/2013/03/man-blows-33-million-lottery-winnings.html )

Education is the key. It is important that men to properly identify and terminate the manipulative practices of predatory women who are out to usurp of them of their well-being and resources.
Men selling their souls to predatory women is not a solution to the problem. Let’s come up with a better solution than staying on the plantation.

Live Free or Die said...

Here's a quote to liven up the blog.

"If a young man gets married, and starts a family and spends
the rest of his life working at a soul-destroying job, he is held
up as an example of virtue and responsibility. The other type
of man, living only for himself, working only for himself, doing
first one thing and then another simply because he enjoys it
and because he has to keep only himself, sleeping where
and when he wants, and facing women when he meets her
on equal terms and not as one of a million slaves, is rejected
by society. The free, unshackled man has no place in its midst."

Esther Vilar - The Manipulated Man

Anonymous said...

MGTOW and happy here! I'm never turning back.

Staid said...

Once a man becomes aware of the illusion that has been imbued upon him since his birth, he is forever changed . Through this epiphany, he leaves behind the destructive system he once endured and frees himself.

Ever since I elected to go my own way ,I have become a happier person. My reasons for going my own way has a lot to do with me living my life in a way that makes ME happy. It has little to with my ability toapproach or have sex with women.

I am just not happy pursuing a life of servitude whist others are. Would you like to live a life of servitude? Then why would you criticize me or any person that choose to live his life freely?

As I have said in this blog and to many others, there are many men and women who will castigate men who choose to free themselves from the invisible slavery. Predatory women fear this and will do everything to stop deter such because it does not benefit their motives.

To those men who men who have been fortunate enough to be with a true NAWALT, I give you props. For the men that are still on the plantation, stop criticizing men who are living a happy life and freed themselves from servitude trap.

You are just proving how well you can conform to social engineering that has been imbued upon you.

Anonymous said...

My fifty year old mother spent my savings on a thug half her age.

The majority of marriages fail, the ones that last, most of them aren't happy.

My friend introduced me to a brothel, so sex isn't an issue.

I have access to porn anytime I want as well as effective masturbation techniques.

I have all my time devoted to my interests and not a woman.

I have never had the confidence around women. I am unsure of mu social role as a male. Conditioned to not be assertive. I was raised by a single mother most my life, without the leadership role of a father.

I would rather spend my time in a fantasy world than real life.

I am a microcosm of the modern male. I've been lied to my whole life that the right woman will just come along.

I'll always be MGTOW. I am 30.


Spacetraveller said...

Staid,

You are welcome! And thank you.

Again, I have to say this: You are one of the men in the MGTOW camp whose arguments are indeed persuasive (not that you should care whether your arguments are persuasive or not, to the general public!). But if we remain philosophical about this, let's say you MUST give reasons for the choices you have made in life...
I have to say that listening to you, I would be encouraged to be sympathetic to your cause. The problem here though is that I am perhaps biased, because I was at least curious enough about MGTOW and therefore prone to being sympathetic...but I am still convinced that were I not, the way you express yourself would sway me.

I think this is important in that one major criticism against MGTOW men is that they are often accused of being 'bitter', 'reactionary' as opposed to making a conscious decision, even 'irrational'.
James T Kirk's comment is typical of this.

LFOD,

I see what you mean in your comment to James T Kirk. But I wonder - how do you conclude that he/she has anger or self-control issues?
I am curious because I see no evidence of this. What I see/hear instead is someone who has only seen the superficial aspect of MGTOW.
I have been away from the blog for a while now, but I remember that you and I crossed swords over your Valentine's Day comment. You see, I was angry with you because you made it so hard for me to defend you as a MGTOW. Your 'Thank God I don't have to buy some woman flowers' sounded so much like what Heartiste likes to call 'butthurt' and THIS is exactly what people like James T Kirk pick up on.
If you however focus on the truly beautiful aspects of MGTOW (as I perceive in Staid's comments), no-one can touch your arguments. This is one issue I find frustrating about some MGTOWs and some Manosphere denizens.

Spacetraveller said...

I am not sure I am making myself clear - perhaps others could express what I am trying to say better than I can. Basically, what I am saying is that though MGTOW may not be a life that some of us may choose or want, we realise that it is a good option for many men who would otherwise be manipulated by bad women. We all accept this truism. So there is already a certain solidarity for MGTOWs at least in small pockets of the world. Don't ruin it by erecting strawman arguments that should be of no concern to ANY man anyway, eg. the (perceived)need to buy flowers. The men who don't want to buy flowers for women are not necessarily the ones who are shunned by women. See how that works? Implying that a MGTOW is a man who has escaped this 'chore' is false, and it also makes it LOOK like you are either a MGTOW BECAUSE you don't/didn't want to buy some chick flowers, (in other words you are a miserable scrooge who is selfish) or that you if you had not been a MGTOW, buying flowers on Valentine's Day would be some sort of obligation for you that you hade no CHOICE but to accept - neither of which is actually true of you, I am sure.

You might not care, but believe me, your own words can and will be used to trip you up. Jamea T Kirk is doing exactly that, and it saddens and frustrates me to see this. Your life as a MGTOW seems to be a happy and peaceful one. Please present it positively, and we will all rejoice with you.

I think it was Metak who introduced me to Ms Vilar. She has a point, me thinks. :-) I have said it before: we womwn know the depths of each other's souls. Vilar clearly knows a thing or two about how devious a woman/women can be. As indeed do I. I tell you, this kind of self-knowlege is a good thing, because knowing how terrible you CAN be is the first step to avoiding going there...

Yes, society rejects the single man because society has its own self-interest to protect, I agree. Don't forget however, that this same society has bad things in store for the single (childless) woman too (but obviously in a different way from how it reacts to a single man). Every society likes to protect itself from extinction. If women don't reproduce, there is 'trouble' for them. If men don't generate resources for women and children there is also 'trouble'. Esther Vilar, in this sense, is only pointing out the obvious, but as she is specifically writing for men in this particular book of hers, she only mentions the 'trouble' that men face. It is indeed a good quote, yes. Agreed. :-)

Spacetraveller said...

James T Kirk,

Welcome to The Sanctuary.

I shall start with the positive because I DO think that you actually make good points, as Staid also noticed.

Agreed - if a man doesn't want to pay alimony, he shouldn't marry so 'goddamn quick' as you put it. You are in agreement with St Jerome! He too advises against a man marrying until he is ready, i.e. that he knows women well enough to marry one. Your point is well taken: Haste is a waste!

Yes, there have always been 'loose women' so what we see in today's SMP is not strictly speaking new.

I also co-sign what you say about it taking hard work to find a good woman in ANY era. This is true. Good women seem harder to find in THIS era though, simply because they are overshadowed by the bad ones, yes. In the past, the good ones outnumbered the bad ones, of course, but it was still tough to pick the good ones out.

Etc.

But...
James T Kirk (and I know that many would suspect you are a woman writing with a male moniker)...personally, I don't care what your sex is, because I have indeed met men who are as unsympathetic to their fellow man as you seem to be (if you are infdeed a man, that is), which astounds me, but there we are.

What you are missing here is the DEGREE to which female promiscuity has messed up the SMP. In the past, MOST men could expect to marry a decent (read: chaste) woman. Now, that critical mass of chaste women is well below what would normally sustain men's incentive to marry. Remember that female promiscuity is a major turn-off to most marrying men (and for good reason - who wants to raise another man's child?).

So a lot of men have good reason to be worried that their bride-to-be may come with extra baggage they don't want to deal with - emotional, health and psychological, to name a few - all as a result of premarital promiscuity. I am sympathetic to this plight that men face because I understand the problems associated with these issues, even though I am not a man myself. In this sense, you really have to walk in a man's shoes to understand his problem with this issue. If you are a man, it would bother me that you don't understand this fundamental issue, and if you are a woman, I would encourage you to delve deeply into this issue before commenting further on it.

I refrain from commenting on your ideas about 'false rape' because I know that I could get into trouble for doing so. Suffice to say that it appears to me however that you oversimplify the problem of false accusation where it comes to rape. It is not a simple matter of men seducing drunken underage girls. I am sure you know this, deep down.

Be fair-minded, please.

Using the word 'all' as in 'all you mig-towls are lame' is never helpful, I promise you. You turn your audience immediately onto 'defence-mode' and it all goes downhill from there...

By all means say that SOME MGTOWs are X, Y or Z, and you will likely find some allies. Saying 'all' of them are lame CANNOT be statistically true, surely!

Look, I also wish that most men would marry, just as I wish most women would marry. I like this idea, very much. I am an old softie at heart. :)But look around you - so many women are not worthy of marriage, would you not agree? I am an advocate for maintaining that there ARE some lovely ladies out there, but I have to admit that there are not enough to go round all the marriage-worthy men, unfortunately. So let's have some sympathy for those men who missed out. I have great sympathy for the wonderful ladies who are missing out too. I for one won't lump them in with the bad ones. It wouldn't be fair. If I won't do it with the ladies, why is it allowed with the gentlemen?

If you take the time to listen to many of these men, you would understand exactly why they choose what they do.

Yes, some of them are just jumping on the bandwagon, so to speak. But I think the majority have a real point. Let's at least hear them out.

Spacetraveller said...

Anonymous at 9:10 AM March 3,

By the 'enemy' do you mean Islam?

I would love to hear more of your thoughts. I have mixed feelings about Islam, and I suspect the reason for this is simply that I am underinformed.

Anonymous at 5:46AM, April 4,

"My fifty year old mother spent my savings on a thug half her age."

Your mother spent YOUR savings on her (presumed) boyfriend?

That's unbelievable. Sorry to hear that. Hope you can at least recover something back for yourself.

At 30, you have your whole life ahead of you. What is past is past. The future may seem bleak as viewed from the past, but you don't have to - view the future from the present, which you can change, as opposed to the past, which you cannot.
New generations of women are being born everyday. Who's to say that in 10 or 20 years the calibre of woman you meet is going to be the same as your mother?

It will be a HUGE task unburdening yourself of the weight of your mother's betrayal, for sure. But you MUST do it. To be truly free. Staying stuck in porn-land is not the answer, I can already tell you. There MUST be a better way. Find it. Good luck.
(I am also VERY good at praying these days - perhaps I'll say one for you too).

Any man here (older than 30) who can give good big brotherly/fatherly advice to this man who seems lost in his masculinity? I wouldn't know where to start as I am not a man. But there must be a way to help him onto his feet. I don't think where he is now is a good place to be...

Staid said...

Hey Spacetraveller,
I thank you for being fair minded and creating this blog.

To my fellow readers:
When I first, “went my own way”, I knew nothing of MGTOW or the antecedent social phenomenon in Japan of Herbivore men. I saw the “big picture” on my own and just opted out of accepting the covert manipulation. I also understood that all not women are manipulative. However, I decided that it was time for me to filter out the people let into my life.
I actually stumbled upon MGTOW inadvertently when I was browsing the internet sometime in December 2014. The philosophy of rejecting malicious practices committed by manipulative women was in line with my own. I was not persuaded, I just happen to come across MGTOW shortly after I “went my own way”.

Sometimes people need to get angry to effect positive change in their lives. But of course, anger should be vented in a way that is constructive, i.e. rejecting the acceptance of malefic (harmful) behavior in one’s life regardless of what the social construct suggests.

Sometimes, the concept of rejecting of malefic behavior is not communicated or articulated in the best of ways by MGTOW’s.

Sometimes, when acts of destruction are being committed against another, their silence may be interpreted as a form acceptance. Thus, it becomes necessary to be forthright and take actions against malefic practices being committed against them to effect real positive change.

I cannot speak for every MGTOW, but I think essence of the MGTOW philosophy with regard to dating, is to avert malefic and manipulative practices of predatory women.


Of course, women have a right to be selective about whom they choose to have children. I don't problem with that. I am not suggesting that women should enter in relationship and have a child with a man that is unwilling or unable to properly contribute in his raising children.

Here is one of the problems:
Women who deliberately pretend to want a sexual, romantic or intimate relationship, with no intent of giving such, knowing they are not going to have children with a man and only out to extract benefits and not giving anything return. How is their act of extracting resources from men solely for their amusement justified?


Lastly, I leave you with these questions:

Should anyone accept behavior that is harmful to oneself? Or should one try to avert harmful that are being committed against them by others?

What can we do to improve dating relations between both men and women that does not involve unwholesome practices?

33Wolfman said...

Two things that are vastly missing in this modern world, truth and loyalty. When people see that they can get more by lying and dumping friendship and/or relationships how do you think 95% will act? We as a society have taken what was core values and chucked them out the window. How often do you see a act of kindness committed in a single day? Before my marriage (and divorce) I tried to treat people as I wanted to be treated, you can guess what happened. So now I pretty much became like everyone else, looking out for numero uno. I still try to help people but I have become very cynical about it. I became MGHOW not long after my divorce. Being I'm in my 40's now I have concluded trying to be in a relationship is no longer viable. From what I have seen most MGTOW are long gone, I applaud your efforts ST, but truthfully to most MGTOW it's too little too late. Most men realize deep down we are responsible for our actions, so we have no qualms about walking away from others who project no responsibility. In one way you females have been the short stick with this. For ages females have been protected so didn't have to be at the same levels of responsibleness that men have had. Until things change in society and people start to have good core values you will see things keep getting worse. We have become a very narcissistic species, and unless we change we will eventually go the way of the dinosaur.

Staid said...

33Wolfman, thank you for your contribution.

The best we can do is to share our experiences with others and hope they will learn something good from them. I do not expect for predatory women to completely stop their malicious practices simply people are writing on blogs. It is definitely a start. I know for sure that silence is not a solution to the problem. Yes, change starts from within. I don’t think there will ever be an end but there will always be room for improvement.

Racism against black people has not come to a complete end simply because President Obama became the first Black African- American President of the United States. We can see the tremendous progress of today’s era compared to the 1960’s. Nonetheless, there is still room for improvement.


As I earlier, I had already begun rejecting malefic practices before I became aware of MGTOW philosophy. One does not have to be a MGTOW to reject against or avert the malefic practices. For some, it some might be too late, for others it is not too late to make changes.

Marcus Aurelius said...

Knowing how the misandrist and oppressive culture and political framework formulates it's own unjust goals, provides a means for the individual man and men, in general,to formulate an efficacious defense against the same. One of these is MGTOW.
With the further knowledge of what strategies the individual man and men, in general, might take to appropriately and efficaciously reach their just life goals, individual men and men, in general, might reach their life goals despite a misandrist social-political-economic-cultural-religious-legal environment which is inimical to the same.
To further their just goals and overcome the socio-cultural-political-legal environment which is hostile, oppressive, and discriminatory towards them, men must have an organization, a plan, and adequate means to carry out that plan.
The fact that the feminists and misandrists, both male and female, are well organized, well planned, and have more than adequate means to further their unjust misandric and discriminatory means and ends, makes it both much more imperative and much more difficult for men, individually and collectively to organize, plan, and find adequate means to carry out those plans to defend themselves from the unjust means and ends of misandric feminism and to attain their just life goals
I am extremely gladdened and optimistic about the success of the men's rights movement, the MGTOW movement and men's efforts to overcome misandrist oppression.
Their individual and collective actions are increasingly efficacious in alleviating misandrist oppressions while further enhancing men's rights and liberties toward the goal of promulgating a more just, civil and equitable society for all.

Anonymous said...

MGTOW: Good or bad for women?

We don't care. We're MGTOW!

Staid said...

Anonymous, thank you for your comment.

To my fellow Readers and Commenters,
If a man is in a true state of happiness and freedom independent of a woman where will she fit into his life? This is a question I always ask myself.

Even when I was dating and having sex in relationships, I always knew something was amiss. I could not quite figure it out. I spent many years trying to understand what it was. I had met all the expectations. I worked at a job getting paid well, lived on my own and was able to take women out on dates.

Here was the problem:

I was unhappy being with women that were disrespectful and causing deliberate drama. All the sex in the world was not worth it. So now what?

If a woman is trying to impose destructive ways upon me because of sex, that is the instant her body and vagina becomes worthless to me. At best, we may be platonic friends.

Please understand I have nothing against women. I simply choose to embrace women that are kind and honest but refuse to fall victim to their malefic behavior.

So again, I ask you question:

If a man is in a true state of happiness and freedom independent of a woman where will a she fit into his life?

Live Free or Die said...

You can't threaten a man with peace and quiet.

Anonymous said...

Hello fellow men - brothers, fathers, sons.
I have been a MGTOW long before the term - going on 40 years now.
My thoughts after all this time - MGTOW is never about non-males.
No non-male can ever define MGTOW for you - that is the beauty of it.
it is ALL about US - what we want as individuals and no one else.
Only we know who we are, what we are and what we can become.

Discussions do not mean anything to real MGTOW - DO or DO NOT - there is no TRY. Men define their purpose in life through ACTION. We made the world great. Nothing good would have been possible without us.

As individuals MGTOW are self-contained and self sufficient.
We need no one or anything that does not meet our standards.
Our standards and goals are as high as we want then to be - there is no village that can hold us back.

Believe.

Gris Bosque said...

I think you have it all wrong, MGTOW is not playing games, its abandoning ship, including most of the women who's only survival skill is manipulation. we intend to crash society. period, non violently, but crashed just the same. and we don't want to breed with entitled females any more. it isn't just about dissappointing bridezillas, its about letting natural selection take out women who think they are princesses... and being surrounded by pleny of people wont matter if they have no survival value.

sorry!

Gris Bosque said...

the village no longer exists for us..
and we are legion and growing by the day. its not going to go back to traditionalism, its going back to the stone age...

Anonymous said...

I am 66 and married but have read much of this with interest. Perhaps there are now social movements but in my experience there have always been MGTOW. They just haven't organized. Some of these men never married, some of those didn't want women in their lives. Some men had relationships with women on the basis of you can come along with me on my terms. NOTE: I would guess that only 20% of men can go their own way and have much sex with women but the ones that can are able to have lots of different women.

My guess is that MGTOW members are gone. If women want relationships with them, it will be without marriage and probably without children (both financial risks for men). Did you know that 10 to 20% of children (depends on the survey) do not belong to the male of the relationship.

The 20% ratio applies to women that can possibly have what they want for a while. The 80% of men and women are going to compromise in some way. I'm sorry for the younger generation of women but many of you will be lonely and if you find a man for a time, he probably will not have relationship skills and perhaps be lacking in sexual practice.

Kevin said...

Spacetraveller , this is a great blog , in fact outstanding !! I think the majority of Western women despise men , not entirely their fault as the Rothschild led Cartel , which has total control of the " media " are using subtle , but very clever , anti-male propaganda , which works better on the more emotional female psyche, so logically in return , men are negative towards women in return , if not outright avoid them (MGTOW). The Cartel is behind stirring up every " Ism " in existence ( sex ,race , age ,class ,you name it ) as a " Divide & Rule " tool to prevent potential resistance to their plans ( lookup Agenda 21 for one example ) , why are the more extreme man-hating feminazis so well funded & supported ?? For a man I beat a lot of women at intuition , I can sense the deep rooted hostility in mainly younger women....even my own 9 yr old daughter started being cold towards me & sticking only to her mother ( I will be divorcing her for being lazy & unappreciative ) this is influenced by the crap on the TV shows she has been watching , I started to wonder whether girls/women had an inbuilt hostility towards boys / men.

This and many bad experiences with women ( just 2 examples : kicked by one for being a gentleman & holding a door , hit over the head by a random stranger woman from behind , with a stiletto heel ..I did not retaliate in any case ) will mean , once single again , I will never , ever allow a woman into my life , we're poles apart in so many respects , mentally & sexually especially ,I have nearly succeeded in killing off what remains of my waning libido , so I will be just like a typical woman in this regard ie little to no sex drive , thankfully !! Is it any wonder a rapidly growing number of men , that used to love women , now view them as " The Enemy " Thank you for being one of the very few women that are positive towards men & prepared to hear our side of the story !!

Anonymous said...

Why go back in the first place ? To be a nice slave ?
lol. If u wait, u'll wait forever, till death aparts you from that dream :D

MGTOW

Asian Dwarf said...

Ultimately, the solution to this "battle of the sexes" problem is to end the government laws that are stacked against men. Palimony should be abolished so that women would not have a financial incentive to divorce good men that take care of these vipers. Women (or men) become evil because of greed and the federal Reserve monetary system is the cause of greed. What MGTOW all comes down to is protecting wealth and control over himself and not having a woman lord over him just because she can threaten to walk away with half or more than half his wealth if he doesn't do what he says. Okay, now to address the deadbeat dads. Palimony should be replaced by a system where the dad buys food, clothing, and education by buying cards that can only be used for food stores or colleges. Palimony fails because the woman often uses the child support payment to buy whatever she wants and may neglect the child. The courts also automatically reward custody of the child to the mother by default even if the mother is abusive and I've seen horror stories where the father mourns the death of his offsprings at the hands of the abusive mother.
Now don't think Asian women are any different, especially if you too are an Asian man. Asian women especially treat Asian men like dirt just as the westernized woman treats westernized men like dirt. I grew up in a "Tiger Mom" dominated home where my father has no say in things and my mother wanted to run my life even tried to set up an arranged marriage with a girl that didn't want children and quit her job just to boss me around and check up on me every 2 hours. It was so bad that she thought I was having an affair with the woman boss who eventually fired me because I had to stay late to do more work from someone who got downsized in my company at the time, Verizon. During my darkest hour, my ex-fiancée put me down and made me feel like crap and insulted me saying I'm an unemployed bum and that she sacrificed her job to care for me. FYI, I did not ask you to quit your job, call me every 2 hours and get me fired. I told this Chinese girl to leave. I'm glad I sidestepped this nightmare marriage arranged by my mother. My mother still thinks that Asian women are as good as the ones from the old days but she is dead wrong. As for myself now, I am single and I got a job 2 months later after I got fired from Verizon at Con Ed back in 2007 when this all happened.

Anonymous said...

www.mgtow.com
www.nowife.com
www.dontmarry.com
www.avoiceformen.com
www.leykis101.com
www.mensrights.com

ArizonaMan said...

Spacetraveller wants find a way for MGTOWs to come back to the Village. What she fails to realize is: women would have to CHANGE THEIR NATURE in order for some of us to consider coming back to the traditional family structure, and the judicial system would have to change as well. We would have to have a judicial system that (gasp) treats women equally instead of putting all the blame on men---in matters of divorce, child support, and a whole host of situations. Does she really think feminists would be willing to let go of all the political power they've gained in the last century? Let's be realistic!

The game is over, ladies----particularly, those of you who live in the United States. My advice to you is: embrace the society you wished for! I have no sympathy for women who have no sympathy for the burdens of men. I'm packing my bags and heading to Galt Valley.

The best scenario I can think of for men, such as myself, is to: get rich, get a house, get some sports cars, get a big screen TV, and become a Playboy. Most American women have overvalued themselves...so there's no point in spending any money on them when it comes to dating. I'd much rather travel to foreign countries and pay some sexy young lady to give me a massage with a happy ending. Some of the foreign ladies understand what their role is, and they won't make a fuss about it. They're happy to serve us in exchange for upgrading their living conditions----the kind of living conditions that we Americans take for granted. They're happy to do whatever American women won't do (mainly because their parents didn't raise them to be entitled brats). If anyone wants to call me pathetic, go ahead. I won't hear you 'cause I'll be 3000 miles away getting drunk and sexually stimulated by a hot chick that won't follow me home and demand child support & "palimony."

Try to convince me that getting married to a woman---who doesn't clean, cook, and is rarely in the mood to have sex---is a better deal. Go ahead.

evnickols said...

What would a hero want with one of worthless whores that is the modern woman?

paul parmenter said...

Is this thread still open?

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