Disclaimer: Whilst I accept that this looks like an attempt at the inflammatory, I hereby declare that it is in fact not as it appears. I just want to understand something. At least that's my (hamster's) story and I am sticking with it :-)
That something is actually rather specific.
For this reason, this post will be brief.
To illustrate my point, it may help to point out that the original title was to be 'The dash for the foreign bride...' but that would not have conveyed the point of this post sufficiently.
A more appropriate title would have included a word which also means 'cat', but in the interests of decorum...
In this post, I am not referring to situations where people of different cultures or races coexist in the same space, aka city or country.
I am specifically referring to the scenario where a man travels to a foreign country in search of a woman.
But not necessarily for a bride, which is my specific gripe :-)
Tourism is great - in general.
But I am referring here to a 'tourism' of a different kind.
Whilst I was thinking about this topic, Metak and JV seemed to be reading my thoughts and started a private duel which somehow started off as a debate about chivalry and ended up as a double rant about men moving abroad to escape Western Feminist TM women. Both Metak and JV make excellent points.
Here are a few relevant excerpts from their discussion by way of 'context':
Metak kicked off with this:
A. Schopenhauer at work here... ;-)
It was an observation of A.S. in his work 'On women' where he compared western Europe with other parts of world and realized that men here were stupid for treating women in that way and that made western men laughing-stock for other societies...
JV:
I suspect that there are regimes far more oppressive to the western man than feminism.
Metak:
Name one... ?
JV:
Take your pick of regimes world wide. The world is not a warm fuzzy blanket for the rest of the world.
Metak:
And yet American men and to large degree men from western European countries are fleeing in such a large numbers in other countries that are not infested with feminist shit...
I understand the 'fleeing' part. I would flee too if I were made to feel like a second class citizen in my own country.
But are their motives towards the women on foreign shores noble when they flee America and Western Europe?
This is my specific question.
I get it.
Women on foreign shores are always more appealing than women under one's nose. Even without the clouding issue of feminism.
For that matter, foreign men...but alas this post is not about women's tastes.
Maybe this whole business is just another manifestation of the Coolidge effect but the wool is being pulled over our eyes. Afterall, what screams 'variety' more than a foreign woman with features that are different?
Especially one who isn't infused with feminist s_______ as Metak explains?
There are some cultures in the world, which to Western men at least, seem to produce more 'feminine' women than in the West.
And I daresay, to other cultures in the world, perhaps Western women are all the rage too? I don't know.
The Manosphere's assertion that 'foreign women' are more feminine, more pleasant, more friendly, more inviting, more attractive...
Are all good... so far.
I think I agree!
But I don't understand one thing.
Maybe my female brain is in the way here...
And I just know Metak is going to call me out on this one :-) He has afterall done it before on this and closely related topics...
These men also seem to revel in the realisation that these foreign women are also easier to...
They pose fewer challenges than the harridan Western feminist TM, precisely because of her femininity.
She is not a 'difficult' woman to get to know, except 'getting to know' this woman is unfortunately not what these men have in mind.
This is a small subset of the brotherhood, I know.
But I am interested in the activities of this small group simply because whatever occurs in the (pure) SMP spills over into the MMP to some degree, wherever the setting, whether it is in Europe, Asia, the moon or Mars.
My specific question is, if the 'foreign woman' is so easy to get, compared with Western Feminist TM, isn't this, um, just a transfer of venue for just another hookup scene?
Just because the venue has moved from California to the Ukraine doesn't change the fact that it is still a hookup culture, no?
Is this a new tactic?
Flatter these women into believing that they are somehow 'better' than Western Feminist TM in order to get them to deliver the goods?
Am I entering a forbodden locker room?
See, if I were assured in no uncertain terms that men going aboroad to seek women were really on the hunt for good feminine potential wives, I swear I wouldn't be penning this post now...
But it seems to me that at least some men are just seeking more docile women with whom to start a whole new cycle of decadence.
And in ten years, rinse and repeat. Western Feminist TM has been replaced by Eastern Feminist TM who got pumped and dumped by Western Man...
And why am I so bothered by this?
Have I got this wrong?
Please indulge me and tell me that I have.
All the while explaining it to me like I am a 6 year old...
This is of no concern to me, of course, but I wonder how the men-folk feel when their women are 'preyed upon' by Western men? Do they care? Do they get some incentive from this activity? (And I don't mean the unscrupulous ones who 'pimp' their sisters to any old stranger. I mean the wider male population of decent standing).
And how do men feel over in the West when there are news reports of Western women being similarly treated?
There have been a few disturbing trends in the UK of late - of a nature which is not exactly identical to the one we discuss here, but nonetheless noteworthy.
Is a foreign woman treated fairly even when she is wifed up? Why are cases of domestic violence against these women headline news? Are these reports 'exaggerated' in the manner of false rape accusations?
I genuinely do not know enough about this. I believe I should.
Explain it to me like I am a 6 year old...please.
55 comments:
I have to admit, it does seem like a hook up scene to me. The ground work of pre feminism. Take docile women,masculinize them and a few decades later, the men will be asking where have all the good women gone. Last time I checked, Brazil is implementing feminism at a faster rate than western cultures did. That doesn't bode well.
As for brides, I don't know. There seems to be a lot of toxic unlikable women in the west. I can't hamster it. I don't get why it doesn't bother them to be fat. If a middle aged woman can deliver 3 kids and still be a size six skirt, why are there so many teens and twenties looking like they're chronically pregnant? It's depressing.
But are foreign women the answer? Will they just end up as toxic once in the culture. I've seen it go either way.
I have to be honest, I'm having a "crisis of faith" when it comes to recommending marriage. The lansdscape is depressing me. I think I've been around too many disagreeable people of all ages in real life. I'm beginning to wonder if as a culture we're just too far gone.
Or maybe I just need to walk the dog and de stress, lol.
Have any of the men here thought about marrying foreign. Would you rather go down there and find someone, or would you go through a service?
@ST
You're starting to freak me out.. acting like we're still married.. everything I say will be used against me in near future... ;-) hahaha
You mentioned UK and domestic violence.. have you seen what goes for domestic violence in UK?
(pretty much anything woman says...)
angryharry.com has a lot of information about all this on his site so I won't waste my time..
He has a huge pile of research that debunks feminist propaganda and lies in the UK...
One of his quotes: For feminists to succeed in reducing violence against women would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. ;-)
"Is this a new tactic?
Flatter these women into believing that they are somehow 'better' than Western Feminist TM in order to get them to deliver the goods?"
Hahaha New tactic? ;-) When a man has a choice between a feminist and pretty much anything, he's going to choose the latter.. it's very simple.. even being eunuch sounds better than to have anything to do with f-devil... ;-)
"But it seems to me that at least some men are just seeking more docile women with whom to start a whole new cycle of decadence."
I wasn't saying that all those men are leaving only to enjoy foreign women.. because of f-devils, police state going out of control (US),laws, misandry.. -> (you see how bad it is when I wrote word 'misandry' it is underlined and it doesn't recognize it.. ;-) the climate has become increasingly hostile for those men to live in..
This whole issue bothers mostly western women.. western women don't have that option.. there are no foreign men for them.. ;-)
p.s. nice picture btw.. ;-) now I want to go.. ;-) and I see that JV is already accepting reservations.. ;-) yes, you can delete my comment ST.. ;-)
@ JV,
"I have to admit, it does seem like a hook up scene to me."
N'est-ce pas?
How is this different from what's going on here in the West?
The only difference I can see is that instead of 'feral' women, we now have 'good' but poor women having money waved in their faces by rich Western men...
Am I being unfair to Western men here?
Again, I do know that no-one is forcing these women...but...let's face it, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from...
Western men are exploiting this (and I guess have done for centuries!) but is it ever right?
"But are foreign women the answer? Will they just end up as toxic once in the culture. I've seen it go either way."
Believe it or not, whilst I seem to be bashing men on this issue, I also know that once over here, 'foreign women' can be just as 'bad' or even worse than Western men. I really have seen it happen. (Herd mentality is the culprit in most cases, mixed in with hypergamy - 'well if one Western man liked me, there must be others even better than him who will also like me...' - and of course, the old hamster which will justify all her actions to her...).
Why don't men realise this, until it is often too late? As a woman I can very easily spot this sort of thing before it happens, but men seem to have a blind spot on this one...
But alas, I am getting off-topic, because my real interest here is in the whole 'tourism' thing where the woman never sees Western soil...she is simply 'pumped and dumped' by a man who has no intention of being with her longterm...
Here's the thing, if foreign women are so great, why do men do this to them? For revenge on Western woman?
Am I crass to even think this might be the case?
If so, I apologise, but I would need an explanation as to why I am wrong.
Metak,
When I mentioned the UK, it was not in the context of domestic violence, although that's another issue I would like to discuss another time when I have more time.
When I mentioned the UK, I was thinking of a recent trend where 'foreign' men, notably Muslim men from the Middle East have been preying specifically on young Caucasian girls who are 'isolated' in the sense that they are disadvantaged young women with no support system (no family, perhaps raised in foster/children's homes, with no real family of their own who is watching their backs, so to speak). Cases like these are springing up everywhere, including Sweden also, where (usually) Muslim men of African or Middle Eastern/Indian/Pakistani background do unspeakable things to young White girls, declaring that they are not allowed to do those things to 'their own'...
So Western men are outraged by these incidents. My point is, how is this so different from what Western men are doing to foreign women on their own doorstep?
And you, Metak, how do you feel about Roosh types plundering Eastern European women? (Who are not known to be 'feministas' (unless this has changed???))?
Do you care? If not, why not?
Now I am wondering if the idea of looking at people in racial/cultural cateories is even right in this context. Maybe it is a problem in itself. Every woman is a woman. Whatever her race/culture. Travelling hundreds of miles to pillage a country's women is in this case the same as doing it one's own land, no?
Re the picture...
Sadly that's not me (as you know, mon cheri :-)
Otherwise you and I would still be married, I suspect. Hahahahahaha!
@JV… “…Have any of the men here thought about marrying foreign…”
No I have never even remotely considered foreign women as the answer.
Look there are enough struggles and conflicts even in the best of marriages. Why add the differences that someone from a radically different culture might bring to the table?
@ST… “…These men also seem to revel in the realisation that these foreign women are also easier to...”
I suspect this is mostly bravado. Take it with a grain of salt.
Even if this were true and occurring at epidemic rates –at the end of the day these are consenting adults. These women are not victims. They need to accept responsibility for their sexual choices and accept the consequences just as the men have to.
Grasshopper
@ Grasshopper
Yes, I could see the cultural and language differences adding problems. But I've seen men marry women with very little English skills. So, I'm left wondering if docility trumps communication.
I know that they are grown women and can make their own choices. I just wonder sometimes if they are a little more innocent of seduction tactics. Possibly even thinking that the men have feelings for them or might marry them. I could be way off base on that. But something about that disturbs me. That, and the poverty that they live in.
@ ST
I suspect that men who do this want the bragging rights of "flags", new experiences and new women.
But, it does seem interesting that certain behavior is justified by them in the west as countering feminist entitlement. Then they do the same thing to non feminist women in their travels. So, it does kind of end up looking like male hamstering. Lol.
The problem with foreign women is primarily focused on if you bring them back to the US. Once in the US they tend to begin adopting the same poor behaviors that you didn't like in Western women, so what to do? You can bring her back, marry her, and hope for the best. Or you can become one of the growing number of expat's who are retiring in the US, going abroad to live there.
I know of several men who have done this, and women in foreign countries are a lot less focused on marriage, and more focused on overall quality of life, so tend to be flexible. In one case a friend, has three women, each with his children who live with him. They swap watching the children, and he always has his needs taken care of. So other countries may have more to offer than just the women. It's also never good to take someone out of their element - women, more so than men, tend to be centered in one spot with family and such. Of course, if you are going to be in an area like that (lots of her family close by), you'll probably only have/need one woman, since they will have her extended family to take care of the children when you want to do something.
Foreign women, more so than Western Women, tend to take care of themselves more. Of course, most of the behemoths in the US are confined to the big-city areas in and around the East Coast. Other areas - like Texas and in the "heartland" tend to have women who take care of themselves. The old rule of thumb of "look at her mother" is still a good indicator of what she'll be like in the coming years.
So there are no "silver bullets" you have to weigh the benefits and detriments and act accordingly.
There seems to be a "free market" mentality at work here. People looking for a mate will go where the "superior" offerings are and say that it's not exploitative because if they themselves weren't "superior" offerings, they wouldn't be snapped up. I use "people" deliberately instead of "men" because I see women doing this, too. (You may recall, ST, that I live in a country where many women from lower social classes actively aspire to be foreign brides.)
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I don't want to deny two people simple marital happiness. (And in the case of the women, economic security for themselves and their children.) Besides, their personal life is none of my business. On the other hand, this is a wider social trend that I think I may comment on, as a member of society. And my two comments are that it's a temporary solution that doesn't do anything to fix the local MMP (as evidenced by the daughters of these marriages growing up to be just as bad as the women their fathers wanted to avoid) . . . and that strategically "poaching" in someone else's pool is bad form.
These "First World" men who think they have a bad deal with their local woman will still have it better than the "Third World" men who actually lose their local women. This seems to be one set up where "Bros Before Hos" fails . . . or rather, a set up which requires that foreign men not be granted equal "Bro" status.
I once heard a justification from an Australian man who married his Filipina pen pal, to the tune that men like him are actually helping women like her because all the men in the Philippines are cheating wastrels! That is NOT true. But I can see why he wanted to tell himself that, to make himself feel better about an unorthodox mating decision. Having said that, though, I'll admit that he and his wife seem to have a wonderful marriage.
@ST & JV
You're mixing everything.. sex tourists and those that want a wife and family.. and I can't say I'm surprised by your objection.. because as we all know men are pigs and they just use women until 'feministas' come to rescue.. ;-) ;-)
Those Muslim man that you mentioned are intentionally (ab)using those girls.. they're in a lot of cases committing crime (a lot of rape cases..).. and you're comparing them to men that go to another country and meet girl there and things progress naturally from there on..
This is one of the byproducts of feminism.. men stop caring for women.. so what happens in Sweden doesn't surprise me a bit..
Since you mentioned Sweden that I already told you the last time is becoming a feminist hell.. what do you think when you see this kind of articles:"Swedish Left Party Chapter Wants To Make Urinating While Standing Illegal For Men"?
Throughout the History this is one of the patterns you'll notice every time.. when two tribes meet there's always some 'humping' going on.. ;-)
How do I feel..? I don't care.. those are adult women.. you mentioned Eastern European women.. they're leaving in large numbers because Russian men have seen their crap which early feminism exposed in them.. even Russian men don't care about them..
@Grasshopper
"Look there are enough struggles and conflicts even in the best of marriages. Why add the differences that someone from a radically different culture might bring to the table?"
My Grasshopper that's precisely the point! ;-) Men have figured out that they can get marriage with little or no struggle at all.. ;-) What's the purpose of having "drama" in your marriage..?
I am very curious to watch this thread. A brief comment on, "And I daresay, to other cultures in the world, perhaps Western women are all the rage too? I don't know." I have had several foreign (male) friends who found the feistiness and boldness of western women very attractive as opposed to the docility of women from their own countries.
@ Metak
I'm trying not to mix the two, just trying to look at both situations.
I'm rather curious to see where this thread goes too. I'm a mother of son's, and it's something that I've thought about.
ST, how is Roosh "plundering" anyone? He wants to have sex with desirable foreign women. And works at it. Very hard. And the women want to have sex with him. This is bad because? True he has become an icon of sorts (someone referred to him as the Christopher Columbus of Cunt as I recall)but mostly to frustrated betas who can't make much headway in American cities because of you know what. Free market indeed.
Grasshopper,
"Look there are enough struggles and conflicts even in the best of marriages. Why add the differences that someone from a radically different culture might bring to the table?"
This reminds me of the poor women (uh...'poor' as in 'poor you', not as in 'not rich') from very hot countries who speak no Norwegian and who are transported to the northernmost tip of Norway, having never seen a snowflake in their life prior to the move!
I kid you not...talk about extremes of climate to adjust oneself to :-)
But somehow, a woman relocating to be with her husband should not be such a big deal, in fact. That's what women do, and have done for... ever. In fact, I think most women expect to do this. And they adjust very well. I know several women who have for example learned the languages of their husbands/boyfriends quite easily (and yes the other way round too, but by far the majority are women, because they are the ones who have to move...).
I see what you mean Grasshopper, but the cultural differences only add spice to life, no?
Each one to his own taste though :-)
"They need to accept responsibility for their sexual choices and accept the consequences just as the men have to."
Granted. I just wish they would.
For their own sakes.
@ JV,
"I know that they are grown women and can make their own choices. I just wonder sometimes if they are a little more innocent of seduction tactics. Possibly even thinking that the men have feelings for them or might marry them. I could be way off base on that. But something about that disturbs me. That, and the poverty that they live in."
JV, I have the same problem. It just makes me sad.
"So, it does kind of end up looking like male hamstering. Lol."
Yes. And Bellita's example of the Australian man is a good example of the male hamster at play, lol. But somehow, I find this is a great example of a 'noble' hamster - he is playing 'knight in shining armour' for his girlfriend and saving her from those cheating (imaginary) Filipino men! I think that's sweet :-)
(When's the next flight to Australia - can someone tell the Aussies that British men are ch......)
:-)
@ Anonymous,
You raise very nice points!
(I just reallised that Metak is right - I am mixing too many issues, and I should have separated them out a little better. On the one hand I am ranting at the male PUAs who go 'å viking' - meaning to go 'to the bay' - and we all know what that meant in terms of Viking history!!! - in other people's land, and on the other hand, I am upset at the foreign bride who doesn't hold up her end of the bargain when a Western man marries her as opposed to do what his brother is up to).
As you describe, perhaps a good solution is to live abroad in the new culture...I too know of many people who have successfully done this. But alas, it is just not practical for most people, I would imagine...
Another one is to find a 'foreign' woman already living in the West who still has her traditional/foreign background. That way, you get the best of both worlds. I know Danny is an advocate of this. And even Roosh suggests this to men who can't afford to go abroad (yet)!
Swiss men certainly take this suggestion to heart ;)
@ Metak,
"...and I can't say I'm surprised by your objection.. because as we all know men are pigs and they just use women until 'feministas' come to rescue.."
Darling ex-husband, this is not fair, and I suspect you know it :-)
The men who are abusing the young women in the West are not necessarily committing a 'crime' in some cases because the women are not all 'underage'. So in many ways, they are also just taking the 'natural' course of things. In this respect, both the Western men abroad and these 'foreign' men in the West are doing exactly the same thing.
And men on both sides of the divide are upset about this: the British justice system is innondated with such cases right now, and several countries are after Roosh's hide after his exploits (sexploits?) abroad.
So, as it happens, I am not the only one 'objecting' :-)
"Throughout the History this is one of the patterns you'll notice every time.. when two tribes meet there's always some 'humping' going on.."
Sure, I accept this. This is why some of us are 'mixed'.
What I am picking at is the manner in which this activity is conducted.
But alas, it is not my business... I know that. But still worth dissecting, no?
"...you mentioned Eastern European women.. they're leaving in large numbers because Russian men have seen their crap which early feminism exposed in them.. even Russian men don't care about them.."
Well well! How's that for a turnout?
Russian women are feministas? Roosh would beg to differ...
Which brings me to Amy's point:
"I have had several foreign (male) friends who found the feistiness and boldness of western women very attractive as opposed to the docility of women from their own countries."
Amy, would you Adam and Eve it (believe it) - I was only half-hearted about leaving the statement about other men preferring Western women in the post - I almost deleted it because I was sure I would have a man scoff at that: 'Really, you believe that?'
:-)
But I am glad you have made this point. And who would have thought - Metak's point above about Russian women really surprises me too, and it just goes to show, doesn't it? One man's poison is another man's treasure.
Food for thought, eh?
@ Bell,
"There seems to be a "free market" mentality at work here."
Yes, I too see this going abroad thing as the perfect 'demand and supply' thing :-)
Only if the foreign women will in fact be better wives for the Western men than Western women.
But I guess we are both limiting our conversation to the MMP, where things are great (if the women hold up). The SMP equivalent is just too murky though...
I see what you mean about the 'bros before hos' thing breaking down. D'you know? I never thought about this, except in the context of local men being upset when a foreign man comes to take their women...
But you are right!
Not exactly showing loyalty to fellow man, is it? ;)
Even my hamster (which is usually very good at this sort of thing) cannot rationalise this one away ;)
"I use "people" deliberately instead of "men" because I see women doing this, too."
Really? Tell me more! How can a woman do this? Is it even possible? I am intrigued...
@ Senior Beta,
"ST, how is Roosh "plundering" anyone?"
You have me 'squirming' in my seat here Senior Beta.
Like Grasshopper, you back me into a corner somewhat.
I am not thinking logically here at all. So I put my hands up in the air and declare myself 'captured' on this one.
JV helps me out by expressing something only a woman will feel. And I am afraid I feel it, along with her.
But alas, as you say (and you are right, as is Grasshopper), these women do want to be with Roosh. He is not committing any crime.
And I daresay the women might be happy with their choices too, I mustn't forget...
But somehow I am inclined to think...not.
Here is one example where I just cannot put masculine goggles on...
my hamster refuses to let me. It sometimes vetoes my logical mind when it decides - all on its own - to bat for 'Team Woman'.
But I shall be fair and declare these situations as 'me being soft in the head'.
*sigh*
It's not so great being an emotional creature. You men don't know how lucky you are...
(OK, I'll stop with the penis envy now).
:-)
@Amy
I have had several foreign (male) friends who found the feistiness and boldness of western women very attractive as opposed to the docility of women from their own countries.
This reminds me of CD saying she can be herself more around men from the UK than men from the US! (She should really drop by again. I keep "talking about her behind her back"!)
But this is probably a variety thing rather than a simple attraction thing. On my blog, I once mentioned a female friend who is average looking in the Philippines but almost literally caused a car crash when she went to Spain! A male commenter who read that said that it wasn't so much that she was the Spanish ideal of beauty, but simply that she was different from Spanish women.
@ST
How can a woman do this? Is it even possible? I am intrigued...
They're already implied in your post! (And I've mentioned the women who invite interest from foreign suitors in my comment.) Just look at this Darwinian situation from the other end. ;)
Do you think that these non-Western women care that they are taking away the men who "belong" to Western women? Some of them fairly preen at the thought that they are already more feminine and desirable than their Western counterparts, by accident of birth. (A few may even rationalize it as "saving" their husbands from Western feminist harpies! Just like the Australian man thinking he "saved" his Filipina wife!) It's intersexual competition on an international scale!
I know that we can see this on a more regional scale in the US, where black women are upset when a black man dates a white woman. There are more college educated black women than college educated black men. And the women don't want to marry "down." But if more and more of their prospective husbands go after white women, then their pool of eligible mates shrinks dramatically.
From the female side of the fence, there too appears to be a sex tourism trade. Whether it's trips to the Carribean or certain middle eastern countries. Not sure about other places.
Back before I had kids, I worked at a place where several women were going down to Cuba and getting married. Then the process of bringing their husbands over would begin.I viewed a lot of these marriages with suspicion, but, quite a few of them are still married.
@ST
"Well well! How's that for a turnout?
Russian women are feministas?"
It started (feminism) in Russia in 1920's.. and it did what it's doing now in The West.. destroying nuclear family and birth-rates..
"A world where men and women would be equal is easy to visualize, for that precisely is what the Soviet Revolution promised." - Simone de Beauvoir
"Darling ex-husband, this is not fair, and I suspect you know it :-)"
I know.. but you should really stop treating women as victims all the time.. OK? ;-)
"One man's poison is another man's treasure."
The Russian men wouldn't agree with you as they know what "treasure" those men are getting.. ;-)
I'm not saying how perfect foreign women are.. bla.. bla.. it's just that for those men the grass is greener over there.. for them it's a huge improvement compared to what they have at home.. but in the end women are women and you get screwed either way.. so enjoy while it lasts.. ;-) ;-)
@ Bellita,
Thanks for the explanation. I get what you say now.
"I know that we can see this on a more regional scale in the US, where black women are upset when a black man dates a white woman."
Talk about one man's poison being another man's treasure...US Black men are a prime example. Certain white men wouldn't touch a white woman with a borrowed.... and yet, there are Black men who would gladly have one. Of course Black men who turn their backs on Black women also get a bit 'territorial' when they see them with White men...and again these white men I am sure would believe there's nothing better than a Black woman, for them.
About Thai/Filipina/Vietnamese women, they do make excellent wives, I have heard. In fact Oriental women in general. Must be something to do with the petiteness, the softness, the culture. On the other hand, the sex tourism thing especially in Thailand is quite the opposite picture...
Now Bell, are you sure that these women really feel they are saving Western men from feminists...or do they just want a free ticket to the West? I gotta play 'devil's advocate' here...which do you think could be the stronger motive out of the two, in general?
@ JV,
"From the female side of the fence, there too appears to be a sex tourism trade."
You know, I wanted to go into this too, but I was aware I already had too many issues to deal with already in the post, that's why I stopped myself in my tracks when I started to head that way, but now you mention it...I am sure some of the men would love to jump all over this too ;)
And I would say, yes it's just as bad when women do it, especially as the whole 'older woman/younger man' thing seems even more unsavoury than the older man/younger woman thing which is at least more 'natural' to my mind. I know it sounds terribly sexist (I apologise if anyone finds it so) but somehow it just seems worse...can't really explain it. The 'ew' factor is high on this one.
@ Metak,
"I know.. but you should really stop treating women as victims all the time.. OK? ;-)"
OK.
:-)
"The Russian men wouldn't agree with you as they know what "treasure" those men are getting.."
And I suspect if they tried to dissuade foreign men from getting with Russian women, they wouldn't be believed.
And in fact I don't quite believe you either, Metak! I have always heard that Eastern European women, especially Russian women are very feminine, and make excellent wives. But clearly you know something we don't. How come we who are not in Eastern Europe have such a false impression then? Is it 'propaganda' we are being sold?
But if so, why? Is this a secret plot hashed up by Russian men to get rid of Russian women? You know I love conspiracy theories - don't encourage my imagination to run wild! ;-)
"...it's just that for those men the grass is greener over there.. for them it's a huge improvement compared to what they have at home.."
Well, that's fair enough. As Anonymous said, as long as one weighs the pros and cons properly and make the best decision based on reality...
"...but in the end women are women and you get screwed either way.. so enjoy while it lasts.. ;-) ;-)"
Hahahahahaha!
Spoken like Metak. I would think something was wrong if you didn't come up with these quips from time to time :-)
@JV… “…I just wonder sometimes if they are a little more innocent of seduction tactics. …”
I see you thinking like a mother here wanting to nurture and protect these girls. I understand your point but don’t you think there are men in their own countries trying to game them for sex too?
@B… “…This seems to be one set up where "Bros Before Hos" fails…”
Good point I hadn’t thought of that. It begs the question though, why do these women see American men as so much more desirable than those in their own country?
Is it really just our standard of living? Doesn’t that make what they are doing gold-digging then?
@Metak… “…Men have figured out that they can get marriage with little or no struggle at all…”
If nothing else this should keep American women on their toes knowing they have global competition.
Grasshopper
@ST… “…a woman relocating to be with her husband should not be such a big deal…”
I agree with you but I have encountered resistance to this frequently. Of course I have been dealing exclusively with American women so that might explain it.
There might be something to this foreign bride thing but I remain skeptical. Many foreign women I know seem to be very high quality. But I know them only casually – through work mostly.
How would they be under more personal circumstances – when they don’t feel they always have to put their best foot forward like at work?
And after the initial thrill of finding someone new wears off and both parties have a more realistic view of exactly what they have – then what? This is the stage where most relationships die. From what I have heard about foreign brides they are already married before this stage even happens.
Is the divorce rate lower between American men with foreign wives vs. American wives? Are there any studies done at all on these kinds of marriages?
Grasshopper
@ST
Now Bell, are you sure that these women really feel they are saving Western men from feminists...or do they just want a free ticket to the West?
Oh, I'm sure the economic consideration is the primary one. :) And I have a feeling that most of the women on the pen pal sites have no illusions about "saving" anyone other than themselves and their future (or current!) children.
But if enough Western men complain to them about Western women, I can imagine that they would start to see themselves in the role of "savior."
Whatever their motivations, however, the point is that they don't care that they are taking away the eligible husbands of other women who "saw them first." When the laws (or rather, the licenses!) of unlimited international free trade are applied to the MMP, people can get really selfish.
Having said that, I do admit that it's their personal choice to make. But I don't think it's a solution to the wider problem.
And I would say, yes it's just as bad when women do it, especially as the whole 'older woman/younger man' thing seems even more unsavoury than the older man/younger woman thing which is at least more 'natural' to my mind. I know it sounds terribly sexist (I apologise if anyone finds it so) but somehow it just seems worse...can't really explain it. The 'ew' factor is high on this one.
I understand completely!
There was an analogous situation I refrained from describing in an earlier comment, because it had too much of the "Ew" factor in it . . . but now it seems pertinent! ;)
A few months ago, a friend of my mother's was bragging that a psychic had told her she would become a "cougar" with a boyfriend young enough to be her son! I was very turned off when I heard her, because she has two unmarried daughters whose dating pool she would be effectively "poaching" in. (To be perfectly transparent, I'll admit that it's my dating pool, too! I'm her daughters' age! :P)
When I pointed it out to her (as tactfully as possible!), she said flippantly, "Well, if a younger man takes an interest in me, what can I do?" My answer: "You can say no . . ." Not that anyone outside of the Gendersphere listens to me . . . Sigh!
As I've said before, I think it's bad form to take away someone else's prospects when you have your own. But people will do as they please. At HUS, Susan has mentioned some "Alphas" who compete with their own sons. That was scandalous enough, but the "Ew" factor increases when it's a woman competing with her own daughters.
@Grasshopper
It begs the question though, why do these women see American men as so much more desirable than those in their own country?
Having never talked to a woman with a profile on a pen pal site, I can't say I'm an authority on their motives! But it's safe to say that economics plays a huge role. Is that such a horrible thing? Well, that depends on the man, I guess . . .
But if we're going to use the term "gold digging," I want to make it clear that this isn't about someone moving up from a decent middle class life into a millionaire's mansion. It's about moving into the decent middle class life. That doesn't make it any less mercenary, of course . . . but I find it hard to judge these women when there are men who are very willing to marry them. (It's kind of like men finding it hard to judge PUAs when there are women very willing to have no-strings sex with them.) They're all adults and they surely know what they're doing better than we do.
@ST
"And I suspect if they tried to dissuade foreign men from getting with Russian women, they wouldn't be believed."
I agree with one observation that Russia is now in post-feminist state.. Russian men prefer vodka over women.. so women turned their eyes towards western men that don't know about their sins.. ;-)
"And in fact I don't quite believe you either, Metak! I have always heard that Eastern European women, especially Russian women are very feminine, and make excellent wives."
We could argue all day about that.. but I refuse.. ;-) There's no point in I heard.. You heard..
We've barely "divorced" and those f-devils have already turned you against me..? ;-) ;-)
C'est la Vie...
Grasshopper said
I see you thinking like a mother here wanting to nurture and protect these girls.
Yes. Perhaps it's the innocence factor, but it triggers my protective and nurturing instincts. But I also think that it ties into something else.
But first.....
I think that economic survival is a key aspect to what makes western men attractive. Though, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I also think that they have a reputation as being loyal husbands.
Most of the stories of western men would probably be the betas and omegas looking for wives. I think our alphas might confuse them. In third world countries alphas are usually thuggish. I worry that they would think that our charismatic and sophisticated alphas are just really attractive betas looking for a wife. Which ties into the first part of my comment. I breaks my heart to think of sweet gentle women making that mistake. I don't know. Maybe I'm being silly.
I'm pretty rational about a lot of things....but like ST, I can't seem to put my man googles on this. It's a feeling thing. I can't defend my point with logic. (Which is a really embarassing thing for an intj to admit, lol.)
Spacetraveler, "I have always heard that Eastern European women, especially Russian women are very feminine, and make excellent wives. But clearly you know something we don't."
Do you remember the thread the other day where NC mentioned a correlation between Feminism and Communism? This is real. A consequence of the new 'communal labor' is that the differences between the sexes are socially eliminated. I imagine that the desirable Russian brides of the past were those oppressed under communism. The new, undesirable, Russian brides are those who have accepted it.
Grasshopper, "And after the initial thrill of finding someone new wears off and both parties have a more realistic view of exactly what they have – then what? This is the stage where most relationships die."
I think that the assumption about foreign brides is that when the honeymoon glow wears off, she still possesses a traditional, cultural, view of marriage and morality that dictates what her duties will be within the marriage and how she is to behave. This cultural understanding is how arranged marriage has worked for millennia, and why modern, western, marriage fails so often.
@JV… “…I can't seem to put my man googles on this…”
You see the women at risk but I see the men at risk here putting so much faith that a woman they barely even know will live up to her country’s traditional cultural norms regarding marriage.
That is a leap of faith that I just don’t think I could ever take.
@Amy… “…I think that the assumption about foreign brides is that when the honeymoon glow wears off, she still possesses a traditional…”
That would be an advantage to be sure. On the other hand, I am not sure what she might be able to contribute financially to the family as language might be a barrier to finding a job.
She’d have to make all new friends and she’d be away from her family. I’d be concerned about her being able to adjust. How might that affect her mood and state of mind?
For every advantage with this I see two disadvantages.
Grasshopper
ST, "I was only half-hearted about leaving the statement about other men preferring Western women in the post - I almost deleted it because I was sure I would have a man scoff at that: 'Really, you believe that?' "
To be completely honest with you, when one of my friends told me that he *preferred* western women, I started to argue with him, telling him how we were garishly loud, socially boorish, obnoxious, arrogant without cause, unfit for marriage and housekeeping... after about an hour of this it occurred to me that 1) there is no accounting for taste and 2) it is not a bad thing for western women to have some admirers. We are not all so very, very bad and if someone could find the American "Naivete" charming and our boldness refreshing... so much the better.
Grasshopper, I was going to disagree with you (and start the stay at home mom war again), but I can't. Perhaps if he moved her family also or situated himself near a large community of her ethnicity it could work...
"For every advantage with this I see two disadvantages." That's ok, as long as you can function. I like to take people like you with me when I go out to buy things like used cars.
ST- Concerning your original post, I don't feel that I know enough about the situation to add to the discussion. In general I find hookup culture repungent and the thought of it spreading like a disease to other parts of the world, possibly capitalizing on differing cultural norms worries me. Like JV, I sincerely hope that the eastern belles understand the nature and future of the sleeping arrangement- no future, no providence, no money, no passport. Just the glamor of a foreign man, who may not be rich or powerful, for as long as he stays.
Wow,
So many insights, so many conclusions I would never have come to on my own...
Thank you guys!
@ Grasshopper (to JV),
"I understand your point but don’t you think there are men in their own countries trying to game them for sex too?"
Good point, Grasshopper!
But somehow I see it as worse when a man travels abroad to do this...nothing screams more 'bad intent' than this 'premeditation' suggests. Sure, if the girl next door is giving one the 'come-on', or even if she just exists :-) a man is entitled to do what drives him.
Having said that, if the foreign woman seems like a better deal for sex, then OK, so be it.
But if the foreign woman is indeed a better deal (to the foreign man), it also means that him 'pumping and dumping' her is somehow so much worse than if her own local man (who doesn't see her as anything special) does this. Look at it this way: if someone who doesn't see you as special rejects you, you wouldn't care. If someone who does see you as God's gift to the universe, does, I think that would be more heartbreaking, no?
So with Metak's analogy with Russian women, if they get dumped by a Vodka-swigging Russian guy, it can't hurt more than if the suave American with the cool accent dumps them for another Russian woman, or any other woman for that matter...
"Is the divorce rate lower between American men with foreign wives vs. American wives? Are there any studies done at all on these kinds of marriages?"
Yes, there are plenty of studies on this, Grasshopper. The divorce rate with foreign women is about half of that between American men and American women. Specifically, the Commission on Filipinos overseas has some interesting data on this, with quotes of 20% compared to 57% respectively...
Amy and Metak,
I see...
I now 'get' the link between feminism and communism...
But I wonder where I got that Eastern European women were more 'feminine'?
Did I hear someone describe them as 'hot' as in 'bangable' and I heard 'feminine'? Could this be the problem? (Or perhaps I really did hear 'feminine' but only where it applies to short-term dating, which is the intention of these men).
Amy (to Grasshopper),
"For every advantage with this I see two disadvantages." That's ok, as long as you can function. I like to take people like you with me when I go out to buy things like used cars."
Hahahahaha! Me too!
This is EXACTLY the mindset one needs when making certain decisions in life. And often I can't bring myself to be this skeptical (sorry, logical!). Hahahaha...so I find I need someone who does...
Grasshopper, what are you doing Saturday afternoon...need a new set of wheels :-)
(I'll sweeten the deal for you with a chicken curry with naan bread and long-grained scented jasmine rice afterwards...so it's a trade-off: wheels for meals!)
"Like JV, I sincerely hope that the eastern belles understand the nature and future of the sleeping arrangement- no future, no providence, no money, no passport. Just the glamor of a foreign man, who may not be rich or powerful, for as long as he stays."
Exactly, Amy. I am with you and JV on this one. The hook-up scene is the same wherever in the world it happens.
Amy,
"I think that the assumption about foreign brides is that when the honeymoon glow wears off, she still possesses a traditional, cultural, view of marriage and morality that dictates what her duties will be within the marriage and how she is to behave. This cultural understanding is how arranged marriage has worked for millennia, and why modern, western, marriage fails so often."
Agreed. This is why I am in support of long (but not too long!) 'courtships'.
Best to see the real person behind the façade before taking a trip up the aisle (without the need to live with them, I might add).
"Grasshopper, I was going to disagree with you (and start the stay at home mom war again), but I can't." :-)
But even a SAHM needs to be able to speak the lingo...but then again, languages are not that hard to learn and come easily to one when one is living in the country in which they are spoken...
But yes, the isolation from one's culture can be draining for a woman in this position...best reason to keep busy then! some might say...
Hm, I am not sure bringing over some or all the other family members is doable, Amy. How rich would the man have to be? :-)
@ JV,
"I'm pretty rational about a lot of things....but like ST, I can't seem to put my man googles on this. It's a feeling thing. I can't defend my point with logic. (Which is a really embarassing thing for an intj to admit, lol.)"
Um, for me it's the opposite. I feel embarrassed each time I get logical. I am all 'feeling' and no logic in my baseline state :-)
Which is why it is so nice to hang around with you logical types ;)
going to a country for "sex-tourism" (and yes, i know it happens) and moving to a foreign country to find a bride are 2 seperate issues. after living- get that....LIVING in 3 foreign countries i can tell you i was VERY much on the lookout for a future "mrs 504" once i knew i was ready to "settle down" (i hate that term btw). when i was living in italy in my mid 20's i came VERY CLOSE to proposing to my Sicilian gf. had i stayed another year, i would have proposed.
*continues eating popcorn*
@ST… “…(I'll sweeten the deal for you with a chicken curry with naan bread…”
OK deal! LOL. Really… you make naan bread too? Ohhh baby!
; - )
Grasshopper
Danny,
I know what you mean. Again I think it's unfortunate that I mixed the two concepts in the above post. They really ARE totally separate!
@ Grasshopper,
"OK deal! LOL. Really… you make naan bread too?"
It's surprisingly easy to make lol. As a total nerd I like to make stuff I don't really need to...I know it's more usual to buy Naan bread...but if you make it yourself and eat it hot straight out of the oven - it's heaven!
Ah ha. I thought this might be where Bellita mentioned me. I'm flattered, B. :)
The reason I hadn't really commented on this was because it's a complicated issue, and one that I have no doubt that the manosphere gets totally wrong. And since, ST, I think you should write about whatever interests you on your own blog without being harassed or told to write about something else, I stayed away. (Although as you've seen, sometimes I give in to the temptation to tell other people what, uh, literature to read or not read...)
I think there is a way to marry someone from a different country without it being an objectification. There's nothing wrong with saying you have more in common with people from your iwb country or more in common with people from a different country. There's no logic to who we like who or who suits us. But I am VERY wary of men who talk disparagingly about "western women." This just seems to me to be a cover for the fact that they can't get any western women to like them. And I think you hit the nail on the head with this:
"But it seems to me that at least some men are just seeking more docile women with whom to start a whole new cycle of decadence."
Among a certain kind of men, femininity does equal easy and docile. I actually came across a comment (I forget where) by a guy who said he has a friendgirl that spends time with him, and return for this attention from him, gave him sexual favors. Obviously, this young man approved of the whole situation, and ended his comment by saying there are at least some feminine women left in west. Revolting, but so far removed from my sphere that it's hard to give it more than a passing moment of horror and then moving on.
But a lot of men in my family have married foreign women. My own mother is Italian, and I have an aunt who is German, one who's Russian, and one from Nazareth. Of course, half my uncles are Italian. My family is pretty mixed. And when I see a white man married to an Asian or Philipina woman, I don't assume that he's a bitter western-woman hating jerk. I just assume that they fell in love and got married. It would be pretty silly to feel otherwise, especially since the churches I attend are probably less than half white anyway, and there's no place in Catholicism for racism.
Bellita, I have found American men harder to get along with or relate to socially than British men, but it's not something that I'm proud of. In fact, since returning from the UK, I've kind of challenged myself to try to like American men better. What makes them tick in many ways is a total mystery to me, despite being American. There are plenty of women who like and get along with American men, so there must be something there. I've wondered at times if growing up in a half-European household has something to do with this, but given the topic of this post, you'd think that would make them like me a bit better instead of reacting to me like they can't quite figure out what planet I'm from.
I would be interested in hearing what, if anything, either of you have to say about relating to American men as non-American women. That's probably asking for trouble, but it is the weekend! ;)
I'm going to go listen to "Jude Law and a Semester Abroad," now.
@ CD,
"Among a certain kind of men, femininity does equal easy and docile. I actually came across a comment (I forget where) by a guy who said he has a friendgirl that spends time with him, and return for this attention from him, gave him sexual favors."
It became clear to me even as I was drafting this post that either I am confused about what it means to be 'feminine' or some factions of the Manosphere is. We can't both be right on this because our views on this aspect of femininity are diametrically opposed.
This is why I insisted on it being explained to me like a 6 year old.
But I guess I need not worry about this issue - for in fact many men have already answered this query I have, if not by their comments on The Manosphere (aherm!) but also by their actions/attitudes towards women who agree to sleep with anyone not their husband.
Especially those who end up pregnant i.e. single mothers, but not exclusively.
That tells me all I need to know on this subject.
In the example you give, the woman may feel 'safe' believing that she is in a 'stable' relationship so she is not 'slutting it up' to use a rather crude description, excuse moi - but when the man is done with her, the next man may beg to differ.
In this sense, a divorced woman is so much more 'acceptable' than a woman like this.
One of the accusations lobbed against 'American woman' meaning of course 'Western woman' is that they are too 'easy' to bed and therefore 'less feminine' than other women of the world.
So I was having trouble understanding why the definition of 'feminine' had changed all of a sudden when applied to a foreign woman who (outside of the marriage market) was doing exactly what 'American woman' would do, but just with a nicer personality. My understanding is, therefore, that these men's definition of femininity is (and I must say, thankfully this is not every man's definition), 'she'll sleep with you real quick, AND cook you your favourite meal'. The implication being that 'American woman' will sleep with you real quick, but she won't cook you your favourite meal.
And my definition of femininity is, 'she won't sleep with you real quick unlesss there's a ring on her finger, but she'll cook for you anyway - at least if she believes you are worth it :-)
But if you do marry her, she will sleep with you and cook you your favourite meal till your dying day (or hers, whichever comes first).'
Interesting that despite your mother being Italian, you self-identify as 'American'. Now, I know you were most likely born and bred in America. But you speak Italian, correct? If so, I would reinvent/'rebrand' myself as 'Italian' (i.e. 'foreign') in that case and see if American men change their view of you - just as an experiment.
The reason I suggest this is that it 'works' for me (I put that in inverted commas because of course I am still single, as in unmarried :-)
Although I am British, I speak other languages other than English, and I find it to be an 'asset' of sorts in the dating arena.
Having said that, although I really like American men in general (in answer to your question), I have never dated any (I never knew any on a close enough basis). But part of the mutual attraction is a mutual appreciation of each other's accents. Somehow when I am speaking English, I do sound British...even now that I live out of England - and they do pick up on this. I also like the American accent. British men don't give a monkeys if I speak with an accent identical to theirs. No novelty factor there, I guess!
But I should say that the men I attract the most and who attract me the most are neither British nor American. They are the men whose languages I happen to speak! And the feeling is mutual because they too are usually surprised that I speak their language as this is rare among the British. (Or perhaps they just see me as a 'nerd' and I don't know it :-)
@ ST
Sometimes it gets even more convoluted. Men have commented about how ridiculously easy foreign women are to seduce after being used to American women and all their shields and hoops. Huh?
I've tried to politely point out some of the conflicting points. In the dating scene in the States, they want attractive, slim nurturing feminine women, who also happen to sexually escalate either immediately or within three dates. Did I miss the memo that sexually escalating quickly is now a feminine trait instead of a hypergamic trait? So, in what hamster reality does this not make this slutty behavior? Especially when these "relationships" are based on pretty flimsey parameters that don't last very long? I need my man decoder ring, lol.
@ JV,
"Did I miss the memo that sexually escalating quickly is now a feminine trait instead of a hypergamic trait?"
Clearly you did, JV, and so did I.
You and I need this explaining to us like we are 6 year olds...
This is definitely one aspect of The Manosphere that I would have to take with a pinch of salt as Grsshopper once advised...
I just cannot be persuaded that this is right.
I understand that wanting to be intimate with someone with whom one is in love is perfectly human. Of course it is, I am not knocking that.
But to label this as part of 'femininity' baffles me, precisely because femininity is about being an effective 'gatekeeper' amongst other things, no?
But then again, masculinity is also about a man's best interests, which does include having no-strings sex...although of course not every man is looking for this type of sex...
Maybe there is virtue in not entering the male locker room afterall :-)
Perhaps that was my first mistake. There are certain things about men that a woman should just not concern herself with.
Unfortunately, not understanding this very concept would be a stumbling block in my (and our) attempt to build successful relationships with worthy men!
It's a catch-22, n'est-ce pas?
Women don't and shouldn't sexually escalate. Your job is just to react to our escalating. Simply alluding to the fact that you are sexually interested and acknowledging that it MAY happen is enough- early on.
Danny,
I like your advice.
It makes sense on two different levels for me.
The first is that it is clear to the man that he is not wasting his time on someone who will never want to sleep with him (I think this is an abhorent situation and I wouldn't wish this on any man).
2. It allows time for both parties to get to know each other better, if a LTR is what each one wants...
Good advice!
Thanks :-)
@CD
I would be interested in hearing what, if anything, either of you have to say about relating to American men as non-American women. That's probably asking for trouble, but it is the weekend! ;)
This may be disappointing, but I actually haven't had much face-to-face interaction with American men. (For obvious reasons, I'm not counting the friends I've made through blogging!) I can't remember if I mentioned this to you the first time you contrasted American and British men, but it was really just my mother or other women telling me that I'd have to marry a foreign man ("American" being shorthand for any Westernized foreigner) because I seemed to be putting local men off with my, uh, eccentricity. :(
Bell,
"...because I seemed to be putting local men off with my, uh, eccentricity. :("
Hahahahahaha!
You know who LOVE eccentric women?
British men!
;)
@ CD,
Looking again at my answer to the same question Bellita is answering, I am struck by just how auditory I am!
I basically told you in my comment above that something as banal as an accent can attract or repel me!
I should look more into this...
I am sure it's more complex than the 'men are visual' thing, and apart from JV who also admitted to being 'auditory' like me, I am not sure many other women online that I know have this as an attraction trigger for them.
But I do know some women in real life for whom this is very obviously their attraction 'switch' and I need to explore this!
Are you 'auditory' too? Is your attraction to Brits based on their accent per chance?
Or is it purely their charm?
:-)
@ST
My understanding is, therefore, that these men's definition of femininity is (and I must say, thankfully this is not every man's definition), 'she'll sleep with you real quick, AND cook you your favourite meal'. The implication being that 'American woman' will sleep with you real quick, but she won't cook you your favourite meal.
And my definition of femininity is, 'she won't sleep with you real quick unlesss there's a ring on her finger, but she'll cook for you anyway - at least if she believes you are worth it :-)
I've been thinking about this since you asked the question, and a possible explanation finally came to me today. Perhaps the reason some men have different standards of femininity for foreign women and their own local women is that the two are on different "ladders."
If the foreign women are stuck on the "sex ladder," with no hope of jumping on the "marriage ladder," then of course they will be more appealing if they have sex really quickly.
On the other hand, a local woman who is on the "marriage ladder" by default (although she may still disqualify herself from it) will be more appealing if she does not have sex really quickly.
Bell,
I think you have hit the jackpot. This is one reason men apear so confusing to women. You never know what 'category' they have put you in (and which of course dictates how they treat you).
Wise words from you, Bellita.
The reverse is also true, if you don't mind me adding to your comment. That some foreign women, to certain men will start off on the marriage ladder (and yes, it's also possible that she gets put on the sex ladder later) and some local women are on the sex ladder until proven otherwise...
The question is, can women steer men into putting them onto the ladder they want?
Cue Helen Andelin :-)
@ST
The question is, can women steer men into putting them onto the ladder they want?
That's a tough one. And I think the answer is . . . no. :(
Remember when I paraphrased Lokland in another thread, saying that men will qualify any woman unless she shows a non-negotiable red flag (whereas women will disqualify any man unless he shows a trait which makes everything else forgivable)? What if the non-negotiable red flag for a man is already that a woman was born and raised in the same country as he? Then as long as the international route is open to him, the local woman doesn't stand a chance. (Perhaps she doesn't stand a chance even if the other option is not available. He can decide to GHOW.)
Having thought about these things more deeply, I've started feeling very sad that people--male or female--will prefer foreigners to their own compatriots, to the point that they cannot praise the former without disparaging the latter. On another (non-Gendersphere) blog, someone pointed out in a thread that it used to be a common expression of patriotism for men to praise their local women. (I believe one of the European countries has praise of its women as a lyric in its national anthem!) That the situation has been reversed so dramatically is a terrible sign for any culture in which it is happening.
Having said that, I also think it's very graceless when a woman disparages the men of her own country. (And sadly, we do see this among the EE/SEA women who hope to land a Western husband.) I understand where the sentiment comes from. Where I live, it is has been shockingly common for men to have mistresses and "outside" families. The reason I sympathize with a man's fear of cuckolding so much is that I have my own "worst case scenario" of being widowed and then having my husband's mistress show up with papers that say my husband acknowledged her children as his own, and demanding her/their share of the inheritance. (A legal note: illegitimate children are entitled only to half of what the legitimate heirs receive.) One widow has enough trouble with money as it is! Imagine a man leaving two or more widows! And I haven't even brought up the emotional toll of the betrayal.
[Takes a deep breath]
But my point is that while the perception of Western white men is that they do make more faithful husbands, I don't think that gives any woman license to issue a blanket condemnation of all the men in her culture. For one thing, the men would not be able to get away with so much if her fellow women did not enable them.
@ Bellita,
"What if the non-negotiable red flag for a man is already that a woman was born and raised in the same country as he? Then as long as the international route is open to him, the local woman doesn't stand a chance."
If this is true (and actually I have no reason to doubt that it is!) then yes, it is a little sad, and harsh. But there we are.
I like to think that any woman can atrract any man...but maybe this is pie in the sky?
I think this because I know some women who have managed to attract and keep the most 'out-of-reach' men. So I know it's theoretically possible...but will some women even try? That's the question...
"I've started feeling very sad that people--male or female--will prefer foreigners to their own compatriots..."
With the world getting more and more 'international', in the sense that formerly far away places ae now easily accessible, perhaps this trend is here to stay.
Who was it that said something like in the year 2050 more than 60% of the world's population will be of mixed heritage...
Perhaps we are there already. Given that the minority race in the world (Caucasian) is also a recessive race genetically, this trend might result in near-extinction of people with 100% Caucasian parentage. The issue is 'compounded' by the terminology as well, in that someone who has 3 Caucasian grandparents and 1 of another race is still not classed as 'Caucasian' unless they are very fair. So there is perhaps a lot of 'misclassification' in the census going on...
"For one thing, the men would not be able to get away with so much if her fellow women did not enable them."
This sounds so much like 'whatever bad thing a man does, it's a woman's fault'...but actually I think it's a helpful way to look at things. As women go, so goes society. This is the Truth. Whatever anyone says.
Women really do shape the culture/society we live in. Men shape the civilisation - they have a different role. It's women who have to straighten out society. Honestly, I have come to the conclusion that this is the only way.
@ST
I like to think that any woman can atrract any man...but maybe this is pie in the sky?
Honestly, ST, it sounds as unrealistic to me as saying any man can attract any woman. (For what it's worth, I'm assuming that by "attract" you mean, "attract and keep.")
With the world getting more and more 'international', in the sense that formerly far away places ae now easily accessible, perhaps this trend is here to stay.
What I'm referring to is general "badmouthing." I think it's possible to prefer the men of different type without disparaging the men of one's own type. An (imperfect) analogy would be the difference between saying, "I prefer men who have light hair," and saying, "I prefer men who have light hair because men who have brown hair are less intelligent." It's the need for a justification that I find suspicious.
Also . . . Last year I stumbled upon the blog of a man whose father was white and whose mother was Chinese. His mother had said that she was so happy she had married a Westerner because Chinese men were so adulterous, domineering, cold, etc. The problem was that when her son grew up, he looked more Chinese than white. And he ended up identifying and sympathizing with the men his mother had so casually put down for years. Because he felt he was one of them and knew he wasn't what she was making them out to be.
Similarly, will the daughter of a man who deliberately chose an Asian wife because "white women suck" (That's the name of a blog, by the way!) feel horrible about herself if she looks more white than Asian? In general, if you resemble the race your opposite-sex parent deliberately rejected, will his/her choice come back to haunt you?
This is a little more of what I mean when I say that marrying outside of one's culture is a temporary, individual reprieve. It won't fix anything. And in some cases, it may make them worse!
(I hope no one thinks I'm saying that people from different countries or cultures should not marry if they are truly in love. Because I have no objection to personal happiness. If people fall in love, then they fall in love. But I do want to challenge the idea that marriage to a foreigner is the best strategic solution to a terrible local MMP.)
Bellita,
"What I'm referring to is general "badmouthing." I think it's possible to prefer the men of different type without disparaging the men of one's own type."
I thought about this a few days. You are right, there is no need for badmouthing anyone. One likes what one likes, and the rest, well, one lives and lets live.
Interesting about the children of mixed marriages. Of course genetics can play games with people :-) and one never knows which way things might swing. A white colleague who is married to an Indian man brought her son in to work yesterday. Looking at the boy, you would never guess he had a white mother...
'White women suck' is the name of a blog?
Sounds almost racist, no? Now I see where you are going with your argument. There is really no need to be so derogatory about a rather large demographic...
Prejudice. Not a good thing. Afterall, there may be many white women who 'suck'. But it doesn't help to lump everyone together like that...
NAWWALT!
However, we respect the fact that each to his own and all that...
@ST
I became very close friends with an Anglo-Indian girl in college. When I asked her what "Anglo-Indian" means and why they consider themselves different from "regular" Indians, this is what she told me . . .
Indian genes don't really "blend" with the genes of other races. So if an Indian and a non-Indian have a child, the child will either look fully Indian or fully non-Indian. This has historically made it difficult for Indians who have British ancestors to integrate into either Indian society or British society. For instance, the British might have been happy to welcome a "white" Anglo-Indian to their communities, but not so happy to welcome any "Indian" children they might have with white spouse. And the same went for an Indian community not being too crazy about two Indian parents having "white" babies all of a sudden. (I don't know if this sentiment is still held by the different groups today, but it's the reason Anglo-Indians had to become their own chummy group about a hundred years ago.)
As far as I can tell, it is true for Pakistanis, too. A Pakistani girl I also knew in college married a white man. They have a "white" daughter who made people think that my former roommate was her nanny and an "Pakistani" son who makes people think he had another father!
Most comments here are speculative from people who never married or even dated foreigners. So rather than speculate, perhaps contemplate definitive statements from people who actually did the deed. Accordingly, I am a white, American male, 6 feet tall, 6-figure salary with a Ph.D. who married a Chinese woman. Many of my white American male friends are doing the same though none of my American female friends have married foreigners. The reason is simple: white, American females raised in an era of feminism and taught they were oppressed from day 1 have huge chips on their shoulders. They are defensive towards men and often unconsciously, even consciously sometimes, view men as an oppressive force or an enemy. As result of being viewed as the enemy, American men have in fact embraced this and therefore increasingly view American women as the enemy. Feminism basically declared war between the genders and they got it. Indeed, men are now simply leaving the battlefield in droves and marrying foreign women like I did. The truth is, feminism was never really about equality, it was about entitlement and dominance. In the Western world women live 7 years longer than marry and now graduate from college more than men yet the old BS about women being oppressed continues due to the Misandry Bubble. I married a beautiful, educated and confident yet nice CHinese woman who didn't have a chip, didn't think she was a princess and didn't feel entitled and I couldn't be happier and now have a wonderful baby. And that my friends, is the truth of what is going on whether you believe it or not.
@ Anonymous at Nov 21,
Apologies!
I just saw your comment, the blog having been overrun by spam which made it hard to filter out non-spam 'Anonymous' comments.
I am sure most people on this thread may be speculating indeed, but I am sure there are many in our midst who are either in mixed race relationships themselves, or are the product of one.
Your relationship is a very typical one at least here in Switzerland, where I live, although China is not the usual source of women here.
I cannot say your words surprise me at all! I see this everywhere I look.
Do you mind telling us what age you are?
Was your wife born and bred in the West or did you meet in China?
Out of interest, what would you think of a Western woman born and raised in China?
In other words, which is the driving (or in this case repelling!) factor for you - the country of origin or where a woman is brought up?
Feminism is unfortunately everywhere one looks now, even in unexpected places.
Even a country like India, for example, has a high number of women with a feministic lean - and I don't simply include here women who are highly educated.
Although the two may go together, it is not necessarily a correlating factor.
I know it's too late for you now (lol), but would a woman of Western origin brought up in China be of interest (theoretically)? Or is it 'Game over' for any woman with white skin, irrespective of her upbringing?
I only speak from my situation/yes older men want foreign wives because those of us not having silver spoons have to seek employment and freedom is on an installment plan /that being said men know they have to provide for the family and that takes cash. I am only 18 months from retirement from the military and during my travels have no doubt that I will move and start my bloodline with a foreign wife, probably Turkey but will have to live there because say that this with regret when visiting Jordan I knew there were better places than the us to raise a family/diversity is nice but cultural unity and family structure is esstential to happieness/aside I do not want slave or anything like that but american women are not worth the time there are no more Nancy Reagans such Brittany and serious men know they owe themselves and their kids a nancy
@ Wagonwheeldc,
Welcome to The Sanctuary!
Interesting that you mention 'older' men. This phenomenon is increasingly becoming a young man's game too, as I am sure you already know. Gone are the days when the foreign woman was someone's second or third wife. Now, they are the first (and usually only) wife.
The only problem I can forsee for men like you who want a foreign wife is that the foreign women are getting increasingly wary of Western men, especially when they live out their married lives in The West. Stories of violence against these women is frankly scaring them away.
So I think your solution of actually moving out there, to the woman's country, and assimilating yourself into her culture may be the better option, because she will feel safer.
And of course, the other thing that bites men in their own foot is the attitude that a Third World woman is a slave...so I am so glad to see taht you are against this attitude.
I wish you every luck in getting the best woman for yourself!
I am sure you will make a fantastic husband for some lucky exotic beauty somewhere :-)
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