With all the talk of burning villages and 'initiation' here at The Sanctuary in recent months, I have been thinking more and more about The Apocalypse.
But I shan't dwell on lugubrious thoughts :-)
And I sure ain't about to get all biblical on you.
Besides, summer is very nearly here (at least in the Northern Hemisphere).
I managed to move past The Apocalypse towards happier endings.
We the ladies are starting to shed the heavy winter coats - to our delight and relief.
The sun is not just 'visiting' anymore, it's 'here to stay' - at least for the next 4 months or so...
And the men are getting happier at the anticipation of sightings of...
Have you ever imagined your own personal utopia?
I am sure everyone has done this several times in their lifetime.
If I could imagine a utopia for today's SMP, what would it look like?
I have previously mentioned french pop singer Alizée who I first heard of on Bellita's blog.
This video of her singing 'La Isla Bonita' probably embodies a utopia of sorts for men of all ages.
Hence the title of this post.
I guess a better title would have been 'what do men want in women?' but somehow I find this a tad too direct.
Necessarily, this particular utopia is what I imagine a man's utopia to be.
The ladies will have to wait for their version later on once I have collected my thoughts on that :-)
Perhaps you can already help me by giving me ideas on what you imagine a woman's utopia to be.
Anyhow, back to the men, let's start with the video:
With that out of the way, and with my irrational jealousy of this woman and her 'moves' in check, let's see what we can come up with for the gallant gentlemen who visit The Sanctuary.
Lord have mercy on my soul...
OK, so she needs to be young and beautiful...irrespective of the age of the man.
We got that bit covered with Alizée. Check.
How low a man will go (re a woman's age) depends on the man... and the woman too...
She also needs to have that magic 70% waist to-hip-ratio thing going on.
Check.
In the case of Alizée, she can also do things with her hips that most women (unless they are professional dancers and /or Mediterranean* - Turkish, Greek, Spanish, Italian, or middle Eastern) just wouldn't be able to pull off...except if they really put some effort into learning how, from a 'natural'.
And even so, the results may be variable.
Susan Boyle does a 'hip wiggle' in this video at 00:30...
But it didn't quite have the same impact as I suspect it would have had if Alizée had done it.
Just a guess...
Just look at that grimace on Piers Morgan's face!
It actually seems to register pain.
I am guessing for this manoeuvre to work, the WTH ratio really has to be around 70%, no?
(And for those who disagree with this, might I add that some very successful belly dancers - the type who subject you to their work whilst you are just trying to eat your dinner in peace at a relatively cheap restaurant at a sunny holiday resort - are in fact overweight, and yet maintain this magic ratio...)
A good voice doesn't hurt. Andrew made that point in the post 'In celebration of the female voice' although I am guessing this need not be professional or even semi-professional.
Over the course of several posts on this blog, I have learned that some of the men here seem to like dark-haired women.
Alizée for the win again.
Are the men who comment at The Sanctuary a self-selected group of some sort?
Military, woman-friendly, alpha, Red Pill types with a penchant for brunettes...
Why were there no takers for blondes when I asked?
Looks aside, the men want feminine women. I think Alizée is a feminine-type woman just by looking at her. But then again, most women are naturally feminine when young (even the tomboyish ones once the masculine haze lifts).
So all the above characteristics display her fertility in an indirect way.
But what about the older woman who has perhaps completed her family?
Or never had any children?
There are some older women (in their 60s and 70s) who are incredibly attractive.
So much so that people do 'double-takes' on encountering them all the time.
And they are not all celebrities who have had cosmetic surgery.
What do these women have in common?
I don't really know, but I am sure someone will nail it for me in the comments.
Quite possibly a man who has had the pleasure of dating or marrying one of these women at that age...
And what about the man who is not necessarily looking for children?
Is he also looking for fertility cues in a woman?
Is he tainted with this evolutionary 'force of habit'?
Or is he capable of letting go of his animal instincts?
Yes, there are many women of childbearing age who don't want children...
But the above point addresses the 'cougar' scenario specifically.
Are there more couples like this than ever before?
My initial guess of 'no' takes into account the ubiquitous nature of modern media and why we just hear more of this type of couple.
But I am willing to be challenged on this...
And this perfect woman - what can she do?
Apparently she can cook very well.
Her children will remember her cooking and for that reason will refuse to leave home until they are well into their 30s :-)
She is supportive and caring.
But she is not a pushover.
She'll tell you when you step out of line, but she won't draw blood.
(At least not the first time you step out of line :-)
She is hardworking but that doesn't mean she has a killer career.
Oh, and she is faithful and thinks you are the only love-god on Earth :-)
Did I leave anything out?
Please enlighten me.
Is it appropriate that this is one of my shortest posts? ;)
Will my imminent post on what women want in a man be considerably longer?
:P
Ladies, please give me your ideas for the perfect man...
Don't be lenient.
The men certainly won't be with us :-)
*In my limited experience, Mediterranean women do this best.
But I will accept that some Asian, African and Northern European women are very talented when it comes to this too :-)
But of course I am not the best target audience for this sort of thing (as I am 'not on the other bus'). Gentlemen, tell us what you think!
48 comments:
What is it today with this song "La Isla Bonita"? The local radio stations are screwing with me and playing this song... :-)
You did pick a good example of feminine beauty, that's for sure.. :-)
Dark hair is huge plus (blond immune :-) )
"How low a man will go (re a woman's age) depends on the man... and the woman too..."
Again if he wants just sex than you get Tom Leykis and he'll go as low as he can probably legally get. :-)
Funny thing when you're a boy you're fantasising about your much older teacher that's dressed more like a hooker... few years later you get appetite for younger meat... :-)
"There are some older women (in their 60s and 70s) who are incredibly attractive."
An example?? The odds for that... I'll stop here... :-)
"And what about the man who is not necessarily looking for children?
Is he also looking for fertility cues in a woman?
Is he tainted with this evolutionary 'force of habit'?
Or is he capable of letting go of his animal instincts?"
Reallllllyyyyyyyy? If you choose a dress that you like more does that mean that you're doing something against your nature?
Are you too a professional comedian? :-)
"Apparently she can cook very well."
Deity in the clouds with many names help me with this one... :-)
I newer thought I would see the day that more men know how to cook than women but I'm seeing it...
For deity's sake :-) even I knew how to make some meals and make my own coffee since I was 10.
"She is hardworking but that doesn't mean she has a killer career."
This one is very simple: "killer career" is a no go if a men wants family because someone is going to be killed by the "killer career". :-)
"Oh, and she is faithful and thinks you are the only love-god on Earth :-)"
Let me correct that:
Faithful must she be, and worship Thee! You are the only love-god on Earth, so appropriate that would be! :-)"
"Oh, and she is faithful and thinks you are the only love-god on Earth :-)"
Metak: "Faithful must she be, and worship Thee!"
The old English form of the wedding vows goes like this, "With this Ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
@amy
I was just goofing off... :-) what do I know about black humor... sorry I meant wedding vows... :-)
"with my body I thee worship"
I wonder how this looks like... ??
That's the main problem with a majority of men... they worship women and get used again and again... even if you love your wife/husband you don't worship her/him..?? ahhh religious mumbo-jumbo... :-)
A very beautiful analogy to marriage.
@ Metak
Your comment makes me sad, but women have been acting terribly. I wonder though if that's partly because women have become transvestites to some degree, have embraced feminism's entitlements, are spoiled, and are not raised to be worthy of "worship". And does this mean being put on a pedestal or just really good sex within marriage. lol.
I wonder about the pedestal part because in the old days women were brought up to be worthy of that position. Bellita had excepts from a book called "Facinating Womanhood" which would make most modern women squirm, but where women were instructed in how to be "earth angels". In other words, a wife was placed there by her husband, but she was aware that it was up to her to continue being worthy of that placement. For hubby's part, he was hero worshiped and accommodated with submissive deference to his authority. Character was important too. Sounds a lot like my grandparent's marriage, which I thought was beautiful.
@ Metak,
"You did pick a good example of feminine beauty, that's for sure.. :-)"
Thank you. I had many candidates for the beauty example for this post, but I chose Alizée because she has what I would call 'universal beauty' i.e. not a niche taste. I think most if not all men would agree she is beautiful, and for that matter women too.
Blond immune? I believe that's a new term for me!
Tell me...what's the colour of your mother's hair?
Just curious...
"An example?? The odds for that... I'll stop here... :-)"
The funny thing is, and also the point is, these women are NOT celebrities with their pictures available...
But actually, I realised something when I read this part of your comment.
I am silly not to have considered this before, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned attractive old ladies at all in the OP.
Something about for you men a woman is only attractive if she is 'bangable'...I hear a lot about this in The Manosphere...
So whilst for me I can see that an older woman is more beautiful than usual if she is winke-free, slim, smiling, etc, I guess a man would not see all that because she still wouldn't pass his 'boner test'.
I don't know if I have oversimplified this...but I think that's what your comment is getting at.
And now there will be another man along to disagree with what I have just said...
:-)
"Deity in the clouds with many names..."
Hahahaha! Never heard this one either!
@ Amy and Metak,
"Faithful must she be, and worship Thee! You are the only love-god on Earth, so appropriate that would be!"
Wow, I love how both of you took my clandestine irreverent joke and turned it into something that now makes me think!
Amy, thanks for that information. I had forgotten that the marriage vows include these words. Not having taken marriage vows myself, I hope this is forgivable lol.
Speaking of marriage vows, I am not sure I actually do hear these words at weddings anymore - perhaps that's why I had forgotten them. Perhaps people are cuuting out the parts they don't like? Like Kate Middleton famously chose to omit the word 'obey' in her own wedding vows last year...
Of course that's somewhat better than including all the words, and then just ignoring them in real life, I suppose.
"with my body I thee worship"
I wonder how this looks like... ??"
Metak, I don't know!
I hope a married person answers this question for us!
@ JV,
"Your comment makes me sad..."
Everything men in The Manosphere say about women makes me sad...
Your grandparents' marriage sounds a lot like my grandparents' marriage.
Ah, to be part of something like that...
"Tell me...what's the colour of your mother's hair?"
That would be a shade of brown...
"Something about for you men a woman is only attractive if she is 'bangable'...I hear a lot about this in The Manosphere..."
If you're a men you most likely have "bang bang glasses" and see most of women through them. :-) I know some women look better compared to other women their age. Same goes for men. So what's the point here?
"Wow, I love how both of you took my clandestine irreverent joke and turned it into something that now makes me think!"
It's good to know that I could be a teacher and a comedian at the same time! Even when I'm goofing off somebody learns something??? :-)
"with my body I thee worship"
I wonder how this looks like... ??"
Probably somehow like this: I'm not in the mood... I've a headache... What's wrong with you, all you think about is sex...? :-)
@ JV & ST
"Your comment makes me sad... Everything men in The Manosphere say about women makes me sad..."
Is it the truth that makes you sad? What? ;-)
"Your grandparents' marriage sounds a lot like my grandparents' marriage.
Ah, to be part of something like that... "
I hear this kind of talk all the time from women that enjoy all the privileges from feminism. As JV said: "women have become transvestites to some degree, have embraced feminism's entitlements, are spoiled, and are not raised to be worthy of "worship"."
Younger women keep saying they want what their grandparents' had but they'll never have it... I hear violins play in my head when women talk like this... :-)
Metak,
Much as I hate to admit this, you bring up points that time and time again, I see come up on other threads, on Manosphere blogs.
The first thing I have to say is that I understand where you and men in general are coming from.
I think I have said this a lot.
To the point of ad nauseum.
But that's only because I see why you (men in general) think like you do.
"I know some women look better compared to other women their age. Same goes for men. So what's the point here?"
I was making a 'mental note' to myself when I made this comment. Let me explain.
The point I am trying to make here is that I can see a woman's beauty in its fullness more than you can (at the age you are where you judge a woman by her ability to arouse you). I think an older man may have a different perspective from you (maybe).
But anyhow, the real point I am trying to make is that because I see much more about a woman than you can, (or rather because I see something different from what you see when we both look at the same woman), our compliments to her that she is beautiful mean two very different things. In this case, she would be more pleased to hear your compliment than she would be to hear mine (unless she is a lesbian or otherwise not interested in a man's opinion of her beauty). As most men are visual, and brutally honest (read: cruel lol) to boot, a woman who is interested in a man is very much validated by such a compliment.
On the other hand, if a woman tells another woman that she is beautiful, it should mean a lot to her because she knows that 1. a woman is another woman's harshest critic and 2. there is no sexual connotation to that and so it's likely to be a sincere compliment. In any case it is an attempt to connect, and women love that. This is a different kind of validation but a valdation nonetheless.
"Even when I'm goofing off somebody learns something??? :-)"
The best things I learn from your comments are when you are indeed goofing off :-)
"Probably somehow like this: I'm not in the mood... I've a headache... What's wrong with you, all you think about is sex...? :-)"
Stop it, you are being unkind here :-)
You are soured on marriage. I get it. But that's no reason to overuse a stereotype...
Whilst I understand that many women refuse their husbands what is afterall their 'right' I also know that no woman can be 100% willing and able everytime. Otherwise, she would be, well, a man! And I don't think a man wants another man...
Consider that she might be ill/pregnant/post partum/tired (yes, women are indeed weaker than men, Metak, whodathunk it!)/on her period/psychologically unwilling because of a rift with husband.
Now, I reckon God knew all this which is why he made men 'polyamourous' but if a man chooses to get married (and in so doing 'forsakes all others' he ought to find a way of getting what he wants from his uncompliant woman. This is one of the reasons I am all for Game, especially Married Man Game ala Atol Kay. You wouldn't believe how much a woman will reward a man who knows what he is doing :-)
Certainly the last reason I gave above will disappear so fast...
I would love it if a married woman gave us the ideal situation from her own experiences so that you and I will have some hope that it can be done and that if we do marry someday, we wouldn't be doomed to divorces.
"Is it the truth that makes you sad? What? ;-)"
Yes the truth does make me sad. I am only sad because I know it is the truth.
Look at it this way. If I knew that women were really the angels we ought to be, a man saying otherwise would make me smirk, not cry. But I know he is right if he says 'women are ___________(insert your own negative trait)' because we have all the evidence to prove him right...
As they say, the truth hurts.
I won't avoid the truth though, even if it hurts.
I would rather the sad truth than a happy lie.
"I hear this kind of talk all the time from women that enjoy all the privileges from feminism."
Younger women keep saying they want what their grandparents' had but they'll never have it... I hear violins play in my head when women talk like this... :-)"
This is my biggest worry about your comment.
Feminism (the wrong kind) created conditions that were present before you and I were born.
When you say 'women that enjoy all the privileges of feminism', realise that certain 'privileges' are viewed by said women as 'burdens' in fact, but have no choice than to play along.
For instance: I know many women who would have loved to have been married at age 18-22...
Such 'good girls' had a nasty surprise when they found that the men in this age group were busy 'sowing their wild oats all over town' and were not in the least bit interested in marriage.
And yet, 100 years ago, these men (not having the option of sex oustside of marriage like it is today), would have been more serious about marriage.
So sex-positive feminism hurt the sex-negative woman, for sure.
Another example: a woman might get an education and work for some years in her young life, because it is a good thing to be able to learn new things, have a goal in life, have someting to occupy her all the while seeking a lifelong partner. Again if her plans are thwarted in the dating game, how can she live if she has no job?
So she is 'enjoying the fruits of feminism' but do you think she would have chosen it for herself? I personally think not. But the choice has already been made for her. The bed is made, she has to lie in it.
Whilst she is putting her energies into working, she is losing time in terms of her fertility...
Never forget that some women have it as hard as you. They are good women, doing their best in difficult circumstances not of their making. I agree these women are indeed in the minority. Yes not all of these women will get what their grandparents had. Sad for them. Sad for society as a whole, because these women would (I believe) make good wives and mothers.
If howeveer your comment addresses the 'entitled' and silly women who think they can have their cake and eat it, i.e. 'ride the carousel' in their young years and then fnd marital bliss when they 'hit the wall', then I agree there is a certain level of deluded thinking there that needs addressing.
This is what I suspect JV is referring to when she says that a great number of women are not fit to be put on a pedestal. I agree with her. But then again, she and I are women who do not lack introspection and are willing to see what's wrong with our own gender, and for that matter, our own selves.
@ST
"But anyhow, the real point I am trying to make is that because I see much more about a woman than you can, (or rather because I see something different from what you see when we both look at the same woman), our compliments to her that she is beautiful mean two very different things."
When I look at the woman I see her physical beauty or lack of it... bla bla.. I don't know her, I try not to assume anything... I choose to see part of Creator in everyone and it's enough for me... :-)
"On the other hand, if a woman tells another woman that she is beautiful, it should mean a lot to her because she knows that 1. a woman is another woman's harshest critic and 2. there is no sexual connotation to that and so it's likely to be a sincere compliment. In any case it is an attempt to connect, and women love that. This is a different kind of validation but a validation nonetheless."
If you were a men you would be a impotent one shooting blanks. :-) I'm sorry but this goes against everything I saw. Maybe an Enigma machine would be helpful here... :-)
"Stop it, you are being unkind here :-)"
You're right. Stay away from married men! Les Misérables :-) at least most of them...
"Whilst I understand that many women refuse their husbands what is afterall their 'right' I also know that no woman can be 100% willing and able everytime. Otherwise, she would be, well, a man! And I don't think a man wants another man..."
Whenever a men says something to a woman she hears it and changes through her "feminine filter :-)" into worst case scenario of biblical proportions... :-)
"Consider that she might be ill/pregnant/post partum/tired (yes, women are indeed weaker than men, Metak, whodathunk it!)/on her period/psychologically unwilling because of a rift with husband."
Answered as I thought you would.. :-) NO NO NO... NO men is expecting that his wife should be always 100% willing and able every time!!! :-)
- ill? - no problem... completely understandable...
- pregnant? - no problem... you're more careful... but the line "Who's you daddy...?" is of the table here... :-)
- postpartum? - who has time to be depressed... :-)
- tired? - no problem... completely understandable if it's not the routine...
- period? - don't know about this one... I guess it's a problem if you're leaking blood and you have to seal the leakage... :-) but again that's the job for a MAN! :-)
- psychologically unwilling because of a rift with husband? - com on... listen to Tina Turner: what's love got to do with it? :-)
"If howeveer your comment addresses the 'entitled' and silly women who think they can have their cake and eat it, i.e. 'ride the carousel' in their young years and then fnd marital bliss when they 'hit the wall', then I agree there is a certain level of deluded thinking there that needs addressing."
I was addressing those 'entitled' and silly women... Don't make me repeat NAWALT crap... :-)
Metak,
"If you were a men you would be a impotent one shooting blanks. :-)"
Hahaha!
So Thank God I am not a man then :-)
"Answered as I thought you would.. :-)"
You know what?
I am pleased you made this remark!
I deliberately stayed firmly in 'woman mode' when I made all of the above comments.
I like to see things from a man's point of view sometimes, because it helps me in a lot of ways, but there are times when that is the wrong approach for me.
I think in the end, you and I understand each other.
A small victory, one would say.
However, our views are coloured by our respective gender-driven make-ups.
That's not a bad thing either.
The beauty is, we learn more about each other (I mean in a general sense: men learning about women and women learning about men) when we 'spar' in this fashion.
"Whenever a men says something to a woman she hears it and changes through her "feminine filter :-)" into worst case scenario of biblical proportions... :-)"
You correctly diagnosed that I blew this out of proportion in order to make my point.
You have my respect for that alone.
The more you comment, the more I see that you in particular, Metak will have no problems with any woman you want to date or marry.
You really have a lot going for you.
I mean that sincerely.
@ST
You sensed all that "negativity" and bad energy about marriage and married men... :-) that's what you get if you listen to majority of married men. I have to stay away from it.. it's not healthy... :-)
At the same time if you're lucky and see a glimpse of that magical fruit 'the apple that's not like all the others :-)' and a happy man that found it... well you kinda want an apple like that for yourself.
thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife :-)
"You correctly diagnosed that I blew this out of proportion in order to make my point.
You have my respect for that alone."
There was not much to diagnose... you're a woman! ;-) and this is when man's filter (woman to man translator) kicks in... :-)
"The more you comment, the more I see that you in particular, Metak will have no problems with any woman you want to date or marry.
You really have a lot going for you.
I mean that sincerely."
Of course there won't be any problems... she'll talk into oblivion and I'll take that as ultimate test to stay calm, detached and centered in spite of it... :-)
p.s. they think extreme sports are extreme... :-)
Hi, Spacetraveler. PVW here. Random thoughts as I read this.
Hmm. La Isla Bonita, if I remember correctly, that was an old Madonna song from years ago. I just checked; it came out in 1987.
As for women knowing how to dance like her, a lot of Caribbean and African women know how, it is part of the music--I recall taking African and Afro-Caribbean dance classes years ago where we learned moves like these.
Traditional wedding vows, "to obey" and so forth, we modernized the traditional ceremony--not surprising, I know! We wrote our own vows and worked with the priest on the readings. He referred to the prayerbook in doing the marital blessing.
As for worshipping each other's bodies, this is something we live, whether or not it was in our vows--I'd have to go look at our wedding album and video.
It is about all my interest in sex being focused upon him and only him. He gets all of me without any exceptions. On his side, he loves being to give of himself to me. He loves being able to turn me on and he likes to know that he is the only man who knows just how to drive me crazy.
@Anonymous
"It is about all my interest in sex being focused upon him and only him. He gets all of me without any exceptions. On his side, he loves being to give of himself to me. He loves being able to turn me on and he likes to know that he is the only man who knows just how to drive me crazy."
Again I expected this kind of answer at least from one married woman. :-) If you're sincere than you're that 'magical fruit', your husband would than be 'lucky bastard' :-) who found the fruit and that makes me, a 'jealous bastard'. :-) joking... :-)
"with my body I thee worship"
I wonder how this looks like... ??"
I knew I would catch at least one good fish with this kind of bate... :-)
You just threw back at me in few sentences what I've learned from tantra, daoism,... :-)
@ST
You were right! Goofing off is a really good way to learn! :-)
@ Metak,
"...thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife :-)"
Correct. She belongs to another.
But it's nice to know that some other man found a woman like this. The question you should ask yourself is, (if you are serious about marriage) why can't you?
"There was not much to diagnose... you're a woman! ;-)"
Why thank you! Whilst it sounds a bit like a reproach, I shall take it as a compliment ;)
Well, some men lack this 'filter' you talk about. You, at 24, have it, so congratulations to you.
"Of course there won't be any problems... she'll talk into oblivion and I'll take that as ultimate test to stay calm, detached and centered in spite of it... :-)"
Good man. The recipe for happiness for any man, this.
(I am not joking about this, by the way).
@ PVW,
"La Isla Bonita, if I remember correctly, that was an old Madonna song from years ago."
Correct.
I have always liked this song. I just didn't like that it came from her . I always prefer it when someone else sings it.
"As for women knowing how to dance like her, a lot of Caribbean and African women know how, it is part of the music--I recall taking African and Afro-Caribbean dance classes years ago where we learned moves like these."
I KNEW someone would challenge me on this point! ;)
And I am glad you are the first. African/Caribbean women are known for their sense of rhythm, which is often demonstrated in dance, yes.
It's funny, when I first saw this video of Alizée, my first thought was, 'where did she learn to dance like that?'
She may be french, but she is dark enough to pass for Spanish/Italian...and these women are not far off from Africans in terms of their sense of rhythm.
I am not very familiar with Asian culture and dance patterns, and as such I don't know if it involves a lot of 'hip action'. Indian dance tends to involve a lot of upper body/shoulder/arm action, and where the hips are involved, it is not nearly as 'provocative' as Alizée's. Northern European dance definitely does not traditionally include any hip action at all, as the body is usually kept straight, so this is necessarily learned, or 'borrowed' from other cultures...
I stand corrected, PVW :-)
"It is about all my interest in sex being focused upon him and only him. He gets all of me without any exceptions. On his side, he loves being to give of himself to me. He loves being able to turn me on and he likes to know that he is the only man who knows just how to drive me crazy."
Whoa, who turned up the heating round here?
Just kidding!
I think this is beautiful.
And by the sounds of it, so does Metak :-)
See? I knew why I called you a Titus 2 woman before...
Keep up the good work. You are an inspiration to me and (I am sure) many other women.
@ST
"Why thank you! Whilst it sounds a bit like a reproach, I shall take it as a compliment ;)"
I guess it was meant as a compliment.. ;-) Your reaction was 'typical woman's reaction' driven by emotions...
"And by the sounds of it, so does Metak :-)"
I don't know what it is... it drives me crazy even thinking about a woman that would trust a men to such a degree, so she could 'let herself to him completely'...
All this joking aside I think that this yours Utopia is just an utopia...
If you start thinking in this way you end up with a huge shopping list of qualities that no mere mortal could satisfy... and you're putting yourself on that 'shaming pole - pedestal'.
Sure your mind thinks it knows what it wants but then every day your heart proves that it knows much better... (a lot of scientific research is actually supporting this...)
p.s. If I'm not nominated for biggest gay/mangina/... on this side of the galaxy after this comment it will be a true miracle! :-)
"I guess it was meant as a compliment.. ;-) Your reaction was 'typical woman's reaction' driven by emotions..."
This is an elegant way of putting this, Metak.
I meant no harm by my comment to you. If you ever saw it as a 'fitness test', consider it a half-hearted one :-)
"...it drives me crazy even thinking about a woman that would trust a men to such a degree, so she could 'let herself to him completely'..."
Impressive, isn't it?
Clearly PVW and her husband got it right. She trusts him to be able to submit to him like that and he is obviously a worthy man in her eyes.
Marvellous when things come out alright like that. But I bet it took a bit of work from both of them...
"p.s. If I'm not nominated for biggest gay/mangina/..."
Au contraire, Metak...
ST you asked in your post what the perfect man would be.
I think that my perfect ideal would be rather old fashioned. Someone with character, courage, self respect, skills and ability.
"...it drives me crazy even thinking about a woman that would trust a men to such a degree, so she could 'let herself to him completely'..."
Metak, a large part of what's wrong today is because a woman doesn't trust enough to do this. And she may very well be right in not trusting. She certainly shouldn't marry a man that she cannot trust enough to submit too.
@ JV,
"ST you asked in your post what the perfect man would be."
You are the first lady to address this question!
Thanks for your answer.
I am still racking my brain to pick a man who embodies this in a non-niche manner. (I think Mark Wahlberg might be too 'specific' for that post :-)
"Metak, a large part of what's wrong today is because a woman doesn't trust enough to do this. And she may very well be right in not trusting. She certainly shouldn't marry a man that she cannot trust enough to submit too."
+1. Especially the last part.
A reluctant bride is the worst thing a man needs. And she herself will be unhappy sooner rather than later.
Waiting for the right man (one that can be trusted and therefore 'submitted to') ain't easy, especially for a woman who wants children.
But it can be done.
Many women have done it, even in less-than-ideal conditions. Why can't we?
ST, if I haven't addressed that question yet, it's because I live in a very delicate glass house and feel surrounded by catapults. ;-)
Bellita,
We all live in glasshouses lol. At least where the SMP is concerned.
But as my old boss always says, onwards and upwards!
By the way, if you are referring to what I think you are referring to, you know you are wrong about that, right?
Metak:
I don't know what it is... it drives me crazy even thinking about a woman that would trust a men to such a degree, so she could 'let herself to him completely'...
Spacetraveler:
Clearly PVW and her husband got it right. She trusts him to be able to submit to him like that and he is obviously a worthy man in her eyes.
Marvellous when things come out alright like that. But I bet it took a bit of work from both of them...
PVW replies:
It is funny, but we don't even use the language of submission in our marriage. If anything, it is because we believe in "mutual submission," so it evens out.
But a lot of traditionalist minded men and women only want to hear about women's submission. We believe, though, it is not a one-way street.
We both submit ourselves to each other in our marriage, because we appreciate each other and marriage is not a scorecard. It is about how we have worked together to build up to where we are today and to keep it going long into the future.
We don't take our marriage and each other for granted.
We provide each other stability in the course of the dramas and ups and downs that can occur in life.
As for him being a man I can "let myself go" with freely, (ie., I'm his with no exceptions, sexually and otherwise) this came about through him proving himself top me as being a man worthy of that trust.
And that goes back to very early in our dating relationship; I wondered about his character, his sense of integrity, trustworthiness.
As we began dating and then got married, it included his absolute devotion to me and our family unit.
I don't feel any sense of insecurity in my relationship with him, and he doesn't feel any with me, because just as I was assessing for his character, integrity, trustworthiness, he was looking to discover mine.
We both found in each other the characteristics we found in an ideal partner for a long term relationship.
@PVW
I think JV used word "submit" and when she did I couldn't help myself but to laugh. :-) All I could see after reading that was a Ferengi from Star Trek saying to a woman: Submit woman! :-)
Surrender would be better instead of submit i believe...
Surrender to yourself. Open up to your total self.
"As for him being a man I can "let myself go" with freely, (ie., I'm his with no exceptions, sexually and otherwise) this came about through him proving himself top me as being a man worthy of that trust."
Well you certainly know how to drive a man crazy... in a very positive way... :-)
Funny thing though, as much as it arouses a man to know that his wife has such a trust/respect for him, he gets a great motivation to be a better husband/father and to not abuse that given trust...
p.s. - @ST it is nice to see when things work out...
@ PVW,
"It is funny, but we don't even use the language of submission in our marriage."
I guess things like this are never verbalised lol...
'Amen' to everything you said.
And long may your beautiful marriage last!
@ Metak,
"Surrender would be better instead of submit i believe..."
Forgive me, but I find 'surrender' worse than 'submit'!
'Surrender' has connotations of a war situation, like one is just about to be taken hostage :-)
Which is probably a good way to view marriage anyway.
Hahahahaha!
"Funny thing though, as much as it arouses a man to know that his wife has such a trust/respect for him, he gets a great motivation to be a better husband/father and to not abuse that given trust..."
I like to believe this too.
Hope you are right about this.
@ Metak
Hahahahaha. I know exactly what you mean, but whether using the words surrender or dominance and submission, the words sound so BDSM. The English language needs to create some words that convey a better sense of feeling or action involved. It's been commented on by a few others in the sphere that the wording just seems too harsh, but we're lacking a vocabulary for the subtler shadings.
Metak:
"As for him being a man I can "let myself go" with freely, (ie., I'm his with no exceptions, sexually and otherwise) this came about through him proving himself to me as being a man worthy of that trust."
Funny thing though, as much as it arouses a man to know that his wife has such a trust/respect for him, he gets a great motivation to be a better husband/father and to not abuse that given trust...
PVW replies:
You got it exactly!
Spacetraveller said...
"It is funny, but we don't even use the language of submission in our marriage."
I guess things like this are never verbalised lol...
PVW replies:
It seems to me that those who make "submission" enough of an issue to verbalize it are those conservative men and women who are overly sensitive to what they see as the source of the problems we face in modern day society (ie., those EEVILL feminists).
As for conservative Christians, they are biblical literalists and so they read those specific biblical passages (passages in Paul and in other places) in light of female submission. That for them is thus the appropriate model for marital accord and upright Christian living.
In any event, I'm a mainline Protestant heretic (smile); we tend to read those differently!
@ST
Forgive me, but I find 'surrender' worse than 'submit'!
'Surrender' has connotations of a war situation, like one is just about to be taken hostage :-)
You might take it "war style :-)" but that's your choice if you decide to take it that way... :-)
I was thinking more like first surrendering to yourself "accepting and expressing your God given uniqueness" and secondly if you find someone that is attracted to and appreciates your expression than you can both "surrender" and just enjoy without anyone being the hostage. In this context surrendering to your true self cannot be seen as a bad thing...
Chris Sabian from "The Negotiator" would be so proud of me right now... :-)
@JV
Well English is my third language and I don't get to many opportunities to sharpen my skills so my vocabulary is pretty limited...
@PVW
"In any event, I'm a mainline Protestant heretic (smile); we tend to read those differently!"
You reminded me of a Protestant woman I met at the marketplace... :-) talking about funny (weird kinda of funny :-) )... I got so many funny stories, just by talking to her, to keep my grandchildren entertained for years... :-)
btw: she believed sex is to be only used for procreation but she was selling a book from one of my favorite writers (Mantak Chia) Multi-orgasmic man. hahahha :-)
@ PVW,
"In any event, I'm a mainline Protestant heretic (smile); we tend to read those differently!"
Somehow, this Catholic extremist approves (grudgingly lol) of your way of seeing things :-)
(How did you manage to get me to tone down my 'quasi-fascist' views like this? I am usually very stubborn...
Maybe I recognise that your way is superior to mine in some way?
I accept defeat - graciously I hope :-)
@ Metak,
"I was thinking more like first surrendering to yourself "accepting and expressing your God given uniqueness" and secondly if you find someone that is attracted to and appreciates your expression than you can both "surrender" and just enjoy without anyone being the hostage."
Well, now that you have explained it in a way that I understand, I see your point.
"Well English is my third language..."
I applaud you. Your English is impeccable.
@ JV,
"The English language needs to create some words that convey a better sense of feeling or action involved."
I know what you mean! I guess no one language has it within it to fully express the full range of human experiences...which is why I am so grateful to be multilingual. If one language does not serve my needs I simply go to another to search for the word I want. It helps tremendously.
Metak:
@PVW
"In any event, I'm a mainline Protestant heretic (smile); we tend to read those differently!"
You reminded me of a Protestant woman I met at the marketplace... :-) talking about funny (weird kinda of funny :-) )... I got so many funny stories, just by talking to her, to keep my grandchildren entertained for years... :-)
PVW's reply:
Well, nothing too wierd or "funny" here, ie., my comments here are not meant to be overly indiscreet or immodest!
Spacetraveller said...
@ PVW,
"In any event, I'm a mainline Protestant heretic (smile); we tend to read those differently!"
Somehow, this Catholic extremist approves (grudgingly lol) of your way of seeing things :-)
(How did you manage to get me to tone down my 'quasi-fascist' views like this? I am usually very stubborn...
Maybe I recognise that your way is superior to mine in some way?
I accept defeat - graciously I hope :-)
PVW replies:
Ah, now that is interesting! I'm noticing something in what you have said, ie., in coversations in real life with people who are at that end of the spectrum with you, Catholic extremist, that they do see value in some Protestant ways of looking at things.
Is it because intellectually, they know that they have some criticisms of their ways of seeing things, or that they have criticisms they didn't realize they had until we got to chatting?
That is how it all began for me, I have always been interested in thinking, assessing and critiquing, rather than following "just because that is the way they say it is..."
Unfortunately, I had a lot of that in my Catholic upbringing, and it is all theologically based--"the magisterium says so, we just follow." But as a Protestant (within the Anglican tradition), my theological basis is different: scripture, tradition and reason.
Numbers of former Catholics in my Sunday school classes appreciate that aspect of our new tradition.
We're encouraged to start from the basics and go from there, to think and assess...It fits me more and my intellectual bent.
Hahahahah, PVW,
You will soon convert me to The Episcopalian Church at this rate!
I shall need Bellita to pull me back from the edge though, back safely into the arms of our beloved Catholicism ;)
Joking aside, you do a great job of putting your point across in a convincing way!
Wish I had that gift.
I am jealous :-)
By the way, if you are referring to what I think you are referring to, you know you are wrong about that, right?
If you are referring to what I think you're referring to . . . it's probably not that. =P
But when I started blogging last year, it seemed that any woman who had a list of qualities she'd like in a future mate (however short and however reasonable) would have the "Laundry List" and "What Do You Bring to the Table?" boulders hurled at her by the Manosphere catapults. And those are just two from their ever-replenishing arsenal!
@PVW
"Well, nothing too wierd or "funny" here, ie., my comments here are not meant to be overly indiscreet or immodest!"
It's too late for me I'm afraid... after that day my brain made permanent connection: protestant = crazy lady at the marketplace = big smile on my face :-)
@ST
"Joking aside, you do a great job of putting your point across in a convincing way!"
Women and religion... the moment when men finds God and begs: "Can't I just have a women, please? I'll even give money to local church..." :-)
p.s. A debate between CAT-HOLIC (cat - addict) and a PRO-TESTANT (in favor of - a very dirty slut with weird fetishes such as gimp suits). You got to love English language sometimes... :-)
@ Bellita
True.
And be prepared to run and duck if a woman brings up romance. Very touchy subject in the manosphere. Which is one aspect of red pill that I just can't square with my personality. I'm not sure if I could fall in love with out it.
Considering my need to court and be courted, and that aloof indifference cools down my attraction and attention ramps it up, I'm in trouble. Lol.
As for laundry lists, reading various blogs, sounds like the men have some very high standards for commitment.
Though, in real life application, the ideal usually makes room for the realistic. Love is funny that way.
Spacetraveller said...
Hahahahah, PVW,
You will soon convert me to The Episcopalian Church at this rate!
I shall need Bellita to pull me back from the edge though, back safely into the arms of our beloved Catholicism ;)
Joking aside, you do a great job of putting your point across in a convincing way!
Wish I had that gift.
I am jealous :-)
PVW replies:
You're welcome to join us in my beloved Episcopal Church, or not at all!
Thanks for the compliment, though.
It really comes down to the it that the Protestant notion of "the priesthood of believers" has allows us to think about what being persons of faith means to us as individuals, to think and talk in community about one's faith and sense of call--where the gifts of spirit are easily apparent.
I find that teaching is where it works well for me: church history, theology, catechism, the prayer book. That is what I bring to our community, and it has been really useful at this point in time, as we are preparing to call a new priest.
We did phone interviews with several and are now visiting a few of them in order to get a sense of how they do liturgy and preach. We are meeting with them informally for conversation.
What are their personalities like? Their ministries? Do those coincide with ours?
Everyone is involved, not just the adults. The chair of the search committee asked the children what they would want the new priest to be like? Male? Female? Young? Older? Married? Single? They just said s/he should be "fun," so we are looking for someone who does a great children's liturgy.
The work we have done in adult education has really firmed up our parishioners' sense of their identity as Episcopalians, so they feel comfortable interviewing and chatting with our candidates.
Metak:
Women and religion... the moment when men finds God and begs: "Can't I just have a women, please? I'll even give money to local church..." :-)
My reply:
You joke, but there is something in what you say...As I think about it, a fair number of the men in the parish are there because their girlfriends/wives (and their families) dragged them along.
In one case, she wasn't a church goer, but her mom was a member of the parish. When they got engaged, she insisted they had to get married in a church, so they chose her mom's.
Then it became, "well, we can't just go to get married, we have to contribute in some way...now we have children, we can't have them grow up with no faith, no baptism, nothing..."
Now, all these years later, he is wondering how it all happened, he is sitting on the vestry with the wife, PVW got them both prepared for confirmation, the children are in Sunday school, etc., etc.
Big grin.... ;)
@JV
As for laundry lists, reading various blogs, sounds like the men have some very high standards for commitment.
Yes, they do! The pendulum has swung very far in the other direction. It would have been fascinating to see how this works out.
@ PVW,
"Now, all these years later, he is wondering how it all happened..."
Hahahaha!
Another one bites the dust, so to speak!
My Grandpa always joked that he has no idea how he got to be married to my Grandma. It seems like one day he woke up and he was married to her and he has no recollection of how he got there. Always makes me laugh.
I figured the only way I could reproduce this scenario in my own life is if I actally used a potent sedative on a man :-)
Unless I learn the 'skills' my Grandma used...
@ Metak,
GREAT word play! Amazing that you are not a native anglophone and you can still come up with stuff like this :-)
Bell,
"Yes, they do! The pendulum has swung very far in the other direction."
Where is CD when we need her? She has to be the world expert on men's laundry lists :-)
"It would have been fascinating to see how this works out."
Bell, why does your strange use of tense here alarm me?
@ST
It was a very deliberate use of tense, but perhaps not the best verb!
I meant: "It would have been fascinating to blog about how this works out!"
So don't panic! :)
Ah, that's better Bell.
That's much better.
:-)
@Bellita
"As for laundry lists, reading various blogs, sounds like the men have some very high standards for commitment.
Yes, they do! The pendulum has swung very far in the other direction. It would have been fascinating to see how this works out."
At least those in western world have to have... Even those traits that were taken for granted previously like cooking, washing clothes,... are not provided by women for their husbands any more. I wrote earlier how more and more women don't know how to cook pretty much anything and you have all the home appliances for washing/drying clothes, cleaning,...
What would this new modern woman bring to MEn? (we can scratch feminine beauty because MEn brings his masculine so it evens out...) There's little or no incentive for MEn... :-)
I'm not talking about exceptions here, just generalizing...
@ST
I've seen this kind of behavior only in women... only DEMANDING! :-)
A man would be embarrassed to demand respect if he didn't earned it...
@Metak
There's little or no incentive for MEn... :-)
What we mean is that there's a difference between an incentive and a unicorn.
@Bellita
"What we mean is that there's a difference between an incentive and a unicorn."
I know what you meant... I just don't get why some men keep saying to these "modern women": "Go back to kitchen! :-)". It became an insult... :-)
p.s. Unicorn is woman's perfect mythological creature... White horse and you don't even need a prince charming on him because it has huge dildo on his forehead... :-)
@ Metak,
"I've seen this kind of behavior only in women... only DEMANDING! :-)
A man would be embarrassed to demand respect if he didn't earned it..."
Excellent observation, Metak...
So here we have two extremes.
On the one hand women who demand too much without expecting to earn it. (Note I don't think this is strictly true, but for the sake of argument let's roll with this theory).
And on the other hand we have men who are so bent on the idea of 'earning respect' and 'honour' that they feel they are not good enough for anything or anyone until they have killed Medusa with their bare hands - to borrow a fittingly extreme plot from Greek mythology - and kill their own confidence as a result...
(Again I don't think this is the whole story, but as before, let's roll with this...)
Each party could teach the other a thing or two then...
Or perhaps these extremes of the spectrum should step aside and make way for those with normal boundaries to progress in the SMP :-)
@ST
You should change your name from Spacetraveller to EXTREMEspacetraveller.. :-)
"And on the other hand we have men who are so bent on the idea of 'earning respect' and 'honour' that they feel they are not good enough for anything or anyone until they have killed Medusa with their bare hands"
To clarify: Man doesn't demand respect (maybe he should..?) at least not in the beginning when he's dealing with women because he thinks she has the same idea about respect and honor... he quickly finds out that's not the case... with your deeds you show if you deserve to be respected... foolish men thinking that you have to have some character and humility when dealing with others. Maybe we need a parade like a crazy feminists... I DEMAND RESPECT! :-)
Metak,
"Man doesn't demand respect (maybe he should..?) at least not in the beginning when he's dealing with women because he thinks she has the same idea about respect and honor..."
I concede that this is a highly plausible scenario.
"You should change your name from Spacetraveller to EXTREMEspacetraveller.. :-)"
There is something quite liberating about the extreme...
I like to flirt with the edge of reason, at least in my thoughts. Not necessarily in real life lol...although I think I occasionally do cross the line :-)
@ST
Come to the dark side, we have cookies. :-)
"There is something quite liberating about the extreme..."
I noticed your tendency to exaggerate... reading Bible too much? :-)
Stay away from the extremes...they've little or nothing to do with 'real life'. :-)
@ Metak,
"I noticed your tendency to exaggerate...
I only exaggerate to make specific points. But I hope I don't dwell on the exaggerated point nor labour the point ad nauseum ;)
"...reading Bible too much? :-)"
Sadly, this is not the case. As you know, Catholics are not exactly known for 'bible-bashing'.
I wish I were though. Hahahaha!
"Stay away from the extremes...they've little or nothing to do with 'real life'. :-)"
Generally good advice, yes. I would normally agree with you.
But I find that my 'extremism' has been somewhat beneficial for me so far. It's like a comfort blanket for a small child.
I like it.
Moreover, I am willing to bet that you are as much an 'extremist' as I am :)
@ST
It takes one to know one! :-)
"Sadly, this is not the case. As you know, Catholics are not exactly known for 'bible-bashing'."
TRUE!! :-) I am willing to bet you that protestants can recite bible in the middle of the night! :-)
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