Thursday, June 7, 2012

Anti-social or just a normal male?

Welcome to The JV show!

Each time JV comments, a new post is born :-)
I could retire my post-finding hemisphere and just depend on her for ideas :-)

So thank you, JV.
For your gems.

Here is something JV said, which I was starting to ponder about anyway. PVW also made a similar comment that made me think.
The background to my thoughts on this is perhaps a little selfish, in a longwinded sort of way.

I mean, if I am going to somehow produce ten children, the names of which are already entered into the old cerebral database, to be dished out at appropriate intervals :-), it is statistically reasonable to expect a good number to be boys.
Sure, I could end up with ten girls.
But that would be (statistically) improbable.

It follows that I have to think about one day being in charge of a man's early life.
By being his mother.

Why do I need to think about this?
Because I imagine I already know how to raise a woman. Because I am one.
I have to prepare myself specially to (co-)raise a man.

Is this overthinking things a tad?
Indeed.
But that's what I do best :-)

On a side note, I am currently wary of both genders when they are still under the age of reason and still under three foot.
The girls game me and the boys show me things I am not expecting to see.
:-)
I think I am going to need all the help I can get.


Back to the topic in hand, PVW said this in the context of educating girls:

"...when I heard about the Oprah Winfrey situation, I thought that in South Africa, can it be a matter of young men in such a more patriarchal society, young men are deemed empowered merely by their existence, while for young girls, they need extra efforts for their empowerment."

I know any future daughters I have will get an education.
That's a given.
First wave feminism achieved this for already at least three or four generations of modern families.
No problem there.

But I am not so sure about my future sons now.
Because it is no longer about leveling a playing field anymore.
It is now about some sort of retribution against manhood.
I didn't sign up for that.
But it might be what my future son will get.
And now I am starting to feel queasy for him before he is born.
Neurotic motherhood at its best :-)


This is what JV said, to further fuel my neuroticism:
This, in the context of 'ball-busting' women:

"It's funny, but your post idea was something that I was thinking about the other day. A friend of mine who is a single mother has a son who was goofing around with my teenager. The insults were fast and furious, and my friend was horrified. She turned to me and said, "I just can't get him to stop doing that." I told her to not worry about it. It's how boys socialize.

But it got me to thinking how varying degrees of teasing insult is a part of male social skills, whether it's among their friends, or the teasing neg with women. Training that out of a boy could cause a lot of problems."



The problem with a feminised society is that it can produce two types of men:

1. In the majority group will be those who just feel isolated and want to run fast from that society, because there is nothing in it that they can identify with.

2. In the minority, the men who are 'feminised' and as a result become unattractive to the vast majority of women.

Neither category is desirable.
I am sure there are 'matriarchies' that worked in ancient times.
But our attempt at 'matriarchy' in the current clime is not working.
Because it is a false and confused kind of matriarchy, precisely because it is borne out of dissent at patriarchy, without a prior negotiation.
It is a funcional matriarchy rebelling at an actual patriarchy.

If more and more households with children are consisting of mostly single mothers, then in thirty years we will have more of the above categories.


But I think I spot an unseen fiend (no typo).
Even in a 'normal' family setting of both parents who are in 'traditional' roles (for want of a better expression), early childhood is going to be spent in the majotity of the time with Mother.
This is not just practical, it is also natural.

A father's 'input' grows with the child's age. That's not to say that he is unnecessary at Day 1 of course.
All I am saying is that the needs of a baby are overwhelmingly at the door of Mother from Day 1 and the direct interaction with father comes later.

If Mother is clueless as to the specific needs of boys, even the most 'advantaged' boys in society, i.e. those who have both parents living under the same roof by age sixteen will lack something they really ought not to do without.

I am reliably informed (by the men of The Manosphere) that boys are singled out at school for ridicule and punishment much harsher than befits their 'crimes'. The problem is said to (partly at least) stem from the fact that the majority of teachers in schools are female.
If this is true (that boys are being singled out in this way), then I don't think the problem is that their teachers are female at all. There has to be an unseen force at play here. In this sense, the female teacher might just be a puppet on a string in a macabre 'Punch and Judy' show where Judy is made to punch Punch more times than is necessary to keep the show funny.

One of the tools at a school's disposal may be the accusation that a boy is 'violent'.
Is this criminalising 'normal' little boy behaviour or is this indeed the start of the long road to 'Her Majesty's pleasure' aka prison for young Tommy?

Was JV right to be nonchalant about her friend's son's behaviour or is she aiding and abeting a future outlaw?
In Britain, around 10 years ago, a new trend started: Handing out ASBOs (Antisocial Behaviour Orders) to 'unruly' teenagers  like smarties. Guess which gender got the majority of these?

And what about the adult men?
Apparently not much changes between ages 5 and 50 :-)

I was once went on a road trip in a party of four, with a married couple in their 50s and a friend in his 40s.
The two men frequently had each other's heads in an underarm head lock whilst I and the other woman looked on in sheer embarrassment whenever this was done in full view of polite company.
To me it was like kindergarten all over again but my female friend assures me this is normal behaviour even for a 50-something year old man :-)



As we celebrate the diamond Jubilee of our dear Queen Elizabeth, my thoughts veer towards two astounding realisations:
1. She has effectively been 'married' to Britain and the Commonwealth for 60 years.
She took vows of loyalty and alliance to the nation, and she has kept them.
2. If she has been Queen for 60 years, she has been married (in the normal sense of the word) for longer than that, because she was already married (and Prince Charles was already a toddler) by the time her father died and she became Queen.

For any woman whose eternal lament is 'he has no social skills, he does and says whatever he wants whenever he wants', spare a thought for our dear old Queen Liz.

Prince Philip has never been known for his social graces and tact.
In fact he is so well-known as 'HRH Prince of Gaffes' that diplomatic relations with certain countries of the world have only been maintained because of the love and respect that the inhabitants have for our dear Reina Elizabeth.
In lesser circles, Prince Philip would have been branded as downright antisocial. He may even have earned himself an ASBO.

And yet, he managed to avoid being thrown out of Buckingham Palace all these years.
He managed to evade being thrown out of the country the literal way.

He escaped the grasp of the guillotine executioner at The Tower of London.
Other spouses of the reigning monarch of England have heard the words 'off with their heads' for much less than the 'crimes' of the impossible Prince P :-)

Does Prince Philip get away with it because he is a man and therefore his tactless jibes at the unsuspecting public (foreign or otherwise) are considered a variant of normal?

Here are some goodies from the national treasure chest of HRH Prince P's gaffes, for your entertainment.
Please note that these were all said to high-ranking people who formed part of a welcoming committe for the royal party:

On a tour of Canada: "We don't come here for our health. We can think of other ways of enjoying ourselves."

During the recession he mused: “Everybody was saying we must have more leisure. Now they are complaining they are unemployed."

When accepting a figurine from a woman during a visit to Kenya he asked: "You are a woman aren't you?"

He asked a Scottish driving instructor in Oban: "How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to pass the test?"

The Duke asked a British student who had been trekking in Papua New Guinea: "You managed not to get eaten then?"

At a Buckingham Palace drinks party, he told a group of female Labour MPs: "Ah, so this is the feminist corner then."

On being offered fine Italian wines by Giuliano Amato, the former Prime Minister, at a dinner in Rome, he is said to have uttered: "Get me a beer. I don't care what kind it is, just get me a beer!"

In Cardiff he told children from the British Deaf Association, who were standing by a Caribbean steel band: "If you're near that music it's no wonder you're deaf".

He told a World Wildlife Fund meeting that "if it has got four legs and it is not a chair, if it has got two wings and flies but is not an aeroplane and if it swims and it is not a submarine, the Cantonese will eat it."

“You look like you’re ready for bed!”
- To the President of Nigeria, dressed in traditional robes.

Said to black dance troupe Diversity at the Royal Variety Performance: "Are you all one family?"

To Australian Aborigines during a visit to Australia with the Queen he asked: "Do you still throw spears at each other?"

To the Aircraft Research Association, he said: "If you travel as much as we do, you appreciate the improvements in aircraft design of less noise and more comfort, provided you don't travel in something called economy class, which sounds ghastly."

While touring a factory near Edinburgh he said a fuse box was so crude it "looked as though it had been put in by an Indian".


It seems no group, clan or nation has managed to escape Prince Philip's sharp wit.
And yet, the most celebrated woman in the world thinks the world of him.
So much so that she has been his loving and faithful wife for over 60 years.

Is he a strutting, rebellious and feckless alpha with an unusual sense of humour?
Or a witless, embarrassing and antisocial sigma?
Or...just a normal male?


Are we in danger of making manhood extinct by the time my sons get born?
Or are we going to let men be men?

And for that matter, let women be women?





Defiant as ever...



But still the best royal consort to date...











55 comments:

just visiting said...

Thanks for the quote dear.

And yes, boys are targeted in ways I wouldn't have believed unless I'd experienced with my sons. I used to think that it was flaky parents with spoiled children that went to war with teachers and administrations. Now I'm of the opinion that it's negligent parents of normal sons who don't.

I'm of the opinion that the radical wingnuts get attracted to teaching.

They've out lawed tag here or any chasing games.. Trying to outlaw balls on the play ground. (How apt)
and in England, certain schools are outlawing best friends or not including the school misfits into social circles. I suppose that they'll all join hands and cross the finish line together. But they'll probably ban sports day too.

metak said...

@ST

Based on everything I've experienced and saw I can only come to one conclusion: Women can't raise boys into men!!
When the boy is old enough and knows how to read and write and starts thinking creatively then the father should take control and responsibility to show him how to be a man. A women won't ever be able to do that...

The biggest idiot in the Universe was the one that decided to put boys and girls in the same school and put in women to teach boys... How can you possibly expect a boy when his hormones start working to pay any attention in school when all he can think of are girls around him?????? ;-)

Only a woman would write anything positive about 'royal family' and Queen Lizard...
I'm proud at those people that are protesting against those elite parasites that are enjoying their lifestyle payed by taxpayers of coarse...

Bellita said...

@ST
You forgot Prince Philip's "cricket bats" comment. ;) That one is my favorite.

@Metak
Only a woman would write anything positive about 'royal family' and Queen Lizard...

Don't flatter us! I can think of many men who are pro-monarchy. They just don't happen to hang out here.

Your comment reminds me of a blog I read by an American living in the UK. She doesn't like monarchy any more than you do, but she had to admit that the British themselves love their Queen and Royal Family. For all the former's griping against the latter, they wouldn't get rid of them any more than they would get rid of their own embarrassing family members. And they will--as a body--gladly support them for generations to come.

Heck, I daresay that if the question of whether or not to retain the British monarchy were put to democratic vote in the UK, the monarchy would win every time!

(I had a Japanese roommate at the time I read that blog, and mentioned it to her. She got thoughtful and said, "I don't like having an Emperor and Imperial Family in this modern age, but when Prince Hiro's wife was expecting their first baby, everyone in Japan was so united. And I loved that.")

just visiting said...

This is what bothers me about being a single mother to a male toddler. I've already seen the process with the older two where their father took over. By the time my husband and I split, they'd had a very solid foundation of "man hood training". ( I do have to give credit, despite the reasons for our splitting, these boys had very good training) The age difference is such, that the older two are like uncles, and that helps. But, I worry.

As for schools, private or homeschooling should be considered. Though, if homeschooling is chosen, there has to be opportunities for socializing.

I can't comment on segregated schooling, as I've never experienced it, and my children haven't either. There is a school here that is an all boys school, but it's up north in the wilds, and they board. Sports and out door activities , as well as raising sled dogs is as much a part of the curriculum as academics.

metak said...

@Bellita

Those men are probably gay, they have some kind of benefit from that crap or are plain stupid...

There were protests and there is a movement to end the monarch... but the people are so frickin stupid....

I wonder how many of those 'united people' think: "Isn't that nice... no matter what kind of sh*t is happening we don't care as long as we 'sheeple' can keep paying for all their sh*t and serving them... bunch of retards... ;-)

metak said...

@JV

Do not worry, my fortune cookie... ;-)

Two older two brothers are going to be his main role models... if you let them. Sure it won't be the same, but it's much better than nothing...

Can you please enroll me in that school... sports and sled dogs... that sounds like so much fun.. ;-)

Bellita said...

@Metak
Well, if ad hominem is all you've got . . . *rolls eyes*

Spacetraveller said...

@ JV,

Thank you for bringing this to the fore.
It is one of those issues that would have slipped my attention... quel horreur!

As they say, to be forewarned is to be forearmed.
I would hate to have sons in the future and be clueless as to what to do with them.

I don't think I will be buying them guns for their 3rd birthday or anything, but at least I shall see their 'horseplay' for what it really is - a natural and necessary sign of developing masculinity. I would do well not to 'cut it down'.

@ Metak,

"Based on everything I've experienced and saw I can only come to one conclusion: Women can't raise boys into men!!"

I have come to the same conclusion. As has the whole of society with the whole 'single (unmarried) mother' thing.

"The biggest idiot in the Universe was the one that decided to put boys and girls in the same school and put in women to teach boys... How can you possibly expect a boy when his hormones start working to pay any attention in school when all he can think of are girls around him?????? ;-)"
Strangely enough, I also agree with you here :-)

As a woman who went to an all-girl school from the ages of 11-18, I concur with what you say.
The adolescent 'segregation' thing works well for both sexes, especially girls, who are even more vulnerable than boys (for obvious reasons) in this unpredictable and sometimes scary time in their lives.
The downside of course is that you come out of your oestrogen hideout at age 18 and all of a sudden you start seeing these creatures with deep voices and hairy arms...

I am an advocate for boys being educated by monks ...but I get the feeling you will fight me on this point, Metak!!!

"Only a woman would write anything positive about 'royal family' and Queen Lizard..."

Objection!

Her Majesty has shown great courage and character in her long reign as Queen. Whether or not one is a monarchist, one can't argue with the fact that she is a shining example of an honourable human being. Not many like her around anymore...
Which is precisely why we are all going down with the sinking ship...

@ Bell,

"You forgot Prince Philip's "cricket bats" comment. ;) That one is my favorite."

Bell, I can't tell you how close I came to including this one in the list above... But I stopped myself because at the time his comments were seen as superlatively inflammatory given the context.
For the benefit of anyone else who may not know the full story, prince Philip said, in response to the consideration of banning guns in the UK after a crazed gunman shot dead some kids and their teacher in a school in Dunblane, Scotland:
“If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?”

People were wanting his head on a platter at that point...not least the parents of the dead children...

Equally embarrassing is when he said to some ex-pats living in China:

"If you stay here much longer, you’ll all be slitty-eyed."

You are right about Brits and the monarchy. Not all of us are pro-monarchy of course, but even those who aren't do appreciate that they bring something to the table. It's the monarchy that makes Britain stand out in the world today. We got nothing else to offer :-)

Spacetraveller said...

@ JV,

I agee with Metak.
Two older brothers is gold dust...

I understand your worry nonetheless.
But as Metak says, older brothers/uncles are much better than nothing. I don't see how your youngest son can possibly lose out on the whole masculinity thing with big brothers around.
And with a mother with insight such as yours!

metak said...

@Bellita

Maybe some day I'll meet one of those pro-monarchy men...

"Heck, I daresay that if the question of whether or not to retain the British monarchy were put to democratic vote in the UK, the monarchy would win every time!"

No wonder the UK government is trying to fine people that don't won't to vote... number of people that are voting is ridiculously small... people have seen the light!!! ;-)
Enough about politics...

@ST

"I am an advocate for boys being educated by monks ...but I get the feeling you will fight me on this point, Metak!!!"

Make that Taoist monks and you've got yourself a deal... ;-)


"Her Majesty has shown great courage and character in her long reign as Queen. Whether or not one is a monarchist, one can't argue with the fact that she is a shining example of an honourable human being. Not many like her around anymore...
Which is precisely why we are all going down with the sinking ship..."


I see, there's no point in banging my head through the wall... I've studied story that is known by the name 'History' and then some...

Bellita said...

@ST
I just realized how ironic it is that you are concluding that mothers alone cannot raise boys into good men . . . in a thread where you praise a queen who has led a country for sixty years! (And if I remember correctly, she is the second-longest reigning monarch of Britain, after another queen! I can't think of any other monarchial country which had two such powerful "mothers"!)

No country is perfect, of course, and if the UK didn't have the problems it has now, it would have others . . . but now I wonder . . . if Elizabeth Windsor had been born, say, George Windsor . . . how would the UK look today, after sixty years of his rule?

Spacetraveller said...

@ Metak,

"Make that Taoist monks and you've got yourself a deal... ;-)"

Um...not exactly what I had in mind, but on further consieration I shall accept your deal.
*shakes hands*

Any masculine elder is good enough. The important thing is that he is there. And the young boys look up to him and go to him for advice and support.
That's why I accepted your deal.
In this regard, I am willing to throw away the religion thing to one side...

@ Bell,

"I just realized how ironic it is that you are concluding that mothers alone cannot raise boys into good men . . . in a thread where you praise a queen who has led a country for sixty years!"

Ah yes...
Except...
Thinking about it carefully, Bell, what do these two Queens have in common?

Very supportive husbands with whom they were madly in love for their entire lives...
Queen Victoria's Prince Albert (with whom she had like a million kids) was such a great husband to her, she effectively became a recluse when he died.
Interestingly, there were echoes of that with ER recently when Prince Philip had to go into hospital and she had to continue the Jubilee celebrations on her own without him. Several people remarked how lost she looked without him. But that is totally understandable - you've had someone at your side for 60+ years and suddenly he's not there anymore...I am beginning to seriously worry about what will happen to her when he dies...and I am assuming he will indeed die first.

Neither of these Queens would have seen themselves as matriarchs because they had strong men they adored at their side. And therefore they strongly identify with patriarchy.

Here is another example of women who saw their men as 'king' even though for technical reasons these men could never advance beyond the level of 'prince' to the outside world, but by their very action of being the rightful head of their respective families, saw themselves as Kings over their respective Queens.

Now we have one similar example of this 'Prince-Queen' marriage in today's world, of course. Ironically it is another Victoria!
Princess Victoria of Sweden who married her personal fitness trainer, Daniel Westling a couple of years ago. It would be interesting to see if he could be as great a support for her as Philip and Albert have been (although this is perhaps an unfair comparison given that Albert and Philip were already Royal men and Daniel was a commoner).

Bellita said...

@ST
Thinking about it carefully, Bell, what do these two Queens have in common?
Very supportive husbands with whom they were madly in love for their entire lives...


Very true! Lovely answer!

And isn't it fitting that two women who could give lessons on how to make your husband feel like a King happen to be . . . Queens! ;)

Spacetraveller said...

Bell,

"And isn't it fitting that two women who could give lessons on how to make your husband feel like a King happen to be . . . Queens! ;)"

N'est-ce pas!

just visiting said...

@ Metak

Do not worry, my fortune cookie... ;-)

You're going to have me swooning with your charm. Lol.
And I agree, the school sounds amazing.

Thank you ST and Metak for your encouraging words.

Perhaps a push towards getting more men teachers would help, but even that has pit falls. My oldest son and friends adored their grade seven teacher. He was a strong manly example, but a parent complained when he threw a marker at one of the boys. And being a private school, he was dismissed. (No union) The parents protested by pulling half of the student population out of school. Unfortunately, he was not reinstated.

Spacetraveller said...

@ JV,

So the 'antisocial' label doesn't just apply to the male children in the school then!
Even the male grown ups are not 'tolerated' either, when they act as their masculine selves dictate.

Houston we have a problem...

Bob Wallace said...

"The insults were fast and furious, and my friend was horrified. She turned to me and said, "I just can't get him to stop doing that." I told her to not worry about it. It's how boys socialize."

It's a feature, not a bug.

Almost all men do it to boys. I do it all the time. Boys wouldn't know what to do if men didn't do it.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Bob,

Welcome to The Sanctuary!

"It's a feature, not a bug."

The educational powers that be clearly need to hear this message more. I guess it's OK that individuals like me didn't know much about this before...but they! They are supposed to be experts on child development...
If THEY don't know that it is normal boyhood behaviour to be a bit 'boisterous', (or even 'boy-strous lol) then God help us all...

metak said...

@ST

Of coarse they know it. They are doing it on purpose.

John Taylor Gatto and his books about education should be next on your reading list.

just visiting said...

Re John Taylor Gatto,

Should be required reading for anyone thinking about putting their kids in "the system."

Senior Beta said...

Re: what to do with future sons

The most practical advice: go into the military. At 18. As enlisted. The lessons will be long lasting and life affirming. Exs. A and B: Danny and Dog.

dannyfrom504 said...

SB-

Thank you. And I was about to comment how I'm staying FAAAR away forum this one. Lol. But trust me, I was very fortunate in that I had a mother who got it, and a grandfather to have as an example.

Spacetraveller said...

Metak and JV,

Thanks for mentioning John Taylor Gatto. I must admit, I haven't actually read any of his books yet, but it seems to me from the little I have seen that he is very much anti-formal education, and is an advocate for home schooling and the whole 'University of life' thing...
Am I correct about what he is about?
If so, that's a tad too 'bohemian' for my (educational) tastes!
I do like the idea of homeschooling, but as I am not trained as a teacher, I could never take on that responsibilty myself, but I admire those who do, of course.

Interestingly, in Switzerland, there are lots of schools inspired by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Maria Montessori and others...

Senior Beta,

That's a good suggestion!
I like the idea of at least National Service for boys, but full-blown military is even better...although I can see that this is the kind of decision that needs to be taken by the boy himself, no?

@ Danny,

Your Mum is indeed a wise woman. I would like to take a leaf out of her book by the time I have sons!
There is so much about boys I clearly don't know (yet) but with the help of you guys I am learning.
I really can't believe my level of ignorance sometimes... but I feel better because at least I am addressing these issues now.
Better late than never...

dannyfrom504 said...

I think you're going to do just fine as a mother.!

Spacetraveller said...

Awww, thanks Danny,

I do hope so too!

Spacetraveller said...

Awww, thanks Danny,

I do hope so too!

dannyfrom504 said...

Aaaaaaaw. Hamster double post. Lol.

Spacetraveller said...

Ah!

Just noticed...
Not sure what happened here...

amy said...

Here is a link to John Taylor Gatto's essay "Against School" http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm it is a pretty short read and worth your time. As far as formal education goes, I'm all for unstructured learning at the elementary level (some reading and a bit of math- lots of running, climbing, and play) followed by vigorous study on a higher level.. but I came to talk about boys.

I am terrified of having boys- they are so weird! so alien! so antisocial! they kill things! they are supposed to be more destructive and ferocious than my second girl (this last one I doubt- she's a wild one). As I am pregnant again, everyone asks, "trying for a boy?" as if this is the only reason one might have more than two children. This 'what to do with a boy' question has been on my mind for a few months now. We won't find out the gender till the birth (there are really so few surprises in life, why hurry through them?). If we get another girl, I'll be a little relieved and if we get a boy... that will be ok too.

I think that virtues and vices are the same in both genders, but they manifest themselves differently. Generosity, Hospitality, Courage, Humility... these will look different. The parents job in each case is to teach skills and boundaries so that the young one can grow up and learn the family culture. I generally think that children are supposed to run and play and create... and to destroy, but mostly to learn by copying what they see in the world and to use their body joyfully. These things don't change from male to female... and my husband will, I am sure, show me what is lacking in my theory if we someday have boys...

Spacetraveller said...

Amy,

Congratlations!

Thank you for that John Taylor Gatto essay.
Yes it was definitely a key read for me.
I immediately identified with the boredom thing he talks about.
When I was about 6, I also made the mistake one day of declaring that I was bored.
What followed next cured me for life. I can honestly say I have never been bored since!


"Now for the good news. Once you understand the logic behind modern schooling, its tricks and traps are fairly easy to avoid. School trains children to be employees and consumers; teach your own to be leaders and adventurers. School trains children to obey reflexively; teach your own to think critically and independently. Well-schooled kids have a low threshold for boredom; help your own to develop an inner life so that they'll never be bored. Urge them to take on the serious material, the grown-up material, in history, literature, philosophy, music, art, economics, theology - all the stuff schoolteachers know well enough to avoid. Challenge your kids with plenty of solitude so that they can learn to enjoy their own company, to conduct inner dialogues. Well-schooled people are conditioned to dread being alone, and they seek constant companionship through the TV, the computer, the cell phone, and through shallow friendships quickly acquired and quickly abandoned. Your children should have a more meaningful life, and they can."

This reads uncannily like a Manosphere manifesto lol.

I can see his arguments make sense. But I can't help wondering if unstructured learning is indeed feasible for the masses...
Of course for me, formal education is all I know, and I therefore cannot imagine a better alternative. To be fully convinced by Gatto, I would need a whole new kind of imagination.

"I am terrified of having boys- they are so weird! so alien! so antisocial! they kill things!"
Hahahaha!
You must be reading my mind. These are my exact fears too :-)

"they are supposed to be more destructive and ferocious than my second girl (this last one I doubt- she's a wild one)."

Funnily enough, I spent the day at the birthday party of an 8 year old. (Yes that's the sum total of my social life these days :-)
It was the party of the boy I mention in the post 'Male and female he created them'. His youngest sister, who is the tiger of the family was more than capable of fending for herself amongst kids twice her age :-)
Fascinating to watch her hold court. But for her size, you would never have guessed that she was the youngest child there...

This post is in fact timely, because at the party today, there was the usual horseplay from the boys (there were about twelve boys and seven girls at the party). True to form, other than ensuring that no-one died, Mum was calm as a cucumber...

just visiting said...

@ST

My middle son went to an unschooling private school until the divorce. My older son went to a conventional private school.

The only problem with unschooling is that it can be tricky placing them in conventional schooling mid stream. My son tested at several grades ahead of his age group, and university level in maths. He was 13 at the time.

Spacetraveller said...

Wow JV,

Clearly your son is exceptionally bright!

And I think you have just helped make the point I posed to Amy.
I think private unschooling school is better for exceptional kids like your middle son, and not for the masses. So they serve a specific purpose in the educational hierarchy.
Would you agree?

just visiting said...

I loved the school. I would have loved to have been a student as a kid. It was out in the country with workshops, animals, and all sorts of learning resources. If a student had a particular interest that wasn't available at the school, as long as the student could get two other students who were interested and committed, they'd hire a teacher for that particular interest.

metak said...

@ST

"This reads uncannily like a Manosphere manifesto lol."

These are all things that boy/men needs!!!! Why is that so hard to understand??? ;-)

"I can see his arguments make sense. But I can't help wondering if unstructured learning is indeed feasible for the masses..."

You sound like you're one step away from eugenics... ;-)

"Of course for me, formal education is all I know, and I therefore cannot imagine a better alternative."

You kinda proved to yourself that they did a great job with ruining your imagination... ;-) I was so disappointed when I was talking to a professor about democratic system and how it's a such a big scam for people.... he simply agreed and said: but it's the best one we've got... REALLY???? ;-) Break out of the box!!

"I am terrified of having boys- they are so weird! so alien! so antisocial! they kill things!"

I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're simply scared... scared of something that you don't know/understand... As my biology teacher in elementary school said: boys are so easy to deal with... give him a ball and he'll play with his friends... buy him a PC and he'll spend time learning about computers, games...
On the other hand she said: girls... they're so demanding... and cost so much... ;-)

If my mother knew what I was doing when I was 9-10 she would've killed me ;-), nearly drowning in river... climbing rooftops of buildings, climbing rock without any gear... fixing and riding my bicycle across the town... being outside whole day and exploring, playing, doing... ahhh the good old days ;-)

just visiting said...

@ Metak

You would have fit right in at that school. A Helicopter parent's worse nightmare. Lol.

Spacetraveller said...

"These are all things that boy/men needs!!!! Why is that so hard to understand???"

Keep your hair on, Metak! I merely made an observation :-)

"You sound like you're one step away from eugenics... ;-)"
Yeah, my Uncle Adolf would be really proud of me right now.

You misread my meaning, I think. JV's descrption of her son's school is so niche and high maintenance that I am not sure it is sustainable for hundreds of children, let alone thousands.
Surely you see where I am coming from?
Purely from an economic point of view...


"You kinda proved to yourself that they did a great job with ruining your imagination... ;-)"

You really are a sharp one, Metak. As soon as I wrote >"To be fully convinced by Gatto, I would need a whole new kind of imagination." "...you're simply scared... scared of something that you don't know/understand..."

Well this is true, and I am not denying it...
Au contraire, I am seeking help about it before I am allowed to inflict lifelong damage on as yet unborn boys.
I am not ashamed to declare my ignorance as long as I do something to correct it while I still can...
In the last few weeks alone I have learned that I shouldn't circumcise my boys, and now I also know that I can let them jump on each other without the need to worry that they are going to end up as violent criminals.

"If my mother knew what I was doing when I was 9-10 she would've killed me ;-)"

From your description of your activities it seems to me you were doing a good job of trying to get yourself killed anyway!

Joking aside, I do appreciate the need for boys to explore the world on their own terms...they need that independence much more than girls...and parents would be wise to let them have as much of that as possible. I realise that now...

metak said...

@JV

That is one thing that I am, and always will be grateful to my parents for letting me experience... UNLIMITED FREEDOM! ;-) almost... ;-)

It's better for her not to know that her son was challenging death at weekly basis... ;-)

@ST

"you're simply scared... scared of something that you don't know/understand.."

Sorry for not making it clear. This was intended for @amy.


"From your description of your activities it seems to me you were doing a good job of trying to get yourself killed anyway!"

I guess I have more lives than a cat... ;-) nevertheless those were the happiest days of my life! ;-)


I don't buy into this whole idea that majority of population is so dumb, and the only way is to let criminals in charge (politicians) to "guide" those "less intelligent".
For me it's very simple: It's your child, and you take care of your child. Why are you even having a child if you're willing to let someone else teaching him and taking care of him...? I'm extreme. ;-)

Yesterday here in BANANA Republic a female teacher was banging boys head into the wall... and female principal just sent her back to classroom like nothing happened...

if you trust strangers better than yourself.. fine with me... it's your choice.

just visiting said...

Re boys

It's about finding the right measure of boundaries and freedom to explore.

just visiting said...

@ Metak

It depends on the child's personality. I've home schooled my two older boys, but only during the few months it took to get them into good schools. My oldest hated every minute of it, my middle son tolerated it. Both are highly extroverted.

My youngest may be the home schooler in the family. Though I'll be checking this against his personality. I have a sneaky suspicion that introverts enjoy home schooling more than extraverts. Though I still think that out side activities and socializing would have to be a priority. Perhaps even more so with introverts.

metak said...

@JV

I'm just ranting... seeing today's kids makes me sad... they've managed to childproof the children! ;-)

You have all those "experts" taking away all the fun out of childhood...

Since when did the parenting become such a hard work? Am I missing something? As a species we've done it for tens of thousands of years...

This 'modern lifestyle' is toxic for everyone living in it...

just visiting said...

@ Metak

Agreed. I'm no fan of helicopter parenting. It ruins childhood, creativity,confidence and responsibility.

Parenting is treated like a stressful chore. I think that this is in part because everyone is so hyper about not being judged as a bad parent. So we (Well, not me, 'cause I'm a "bad parent"<lol) don't let our kids ride bikes without helmets, drive them everywhere,schedule every last minute with planned activities and lessons, drug them into submission , but god forbid that a peanut butter sandwich is allowed near them.

Spacetraveller said...

@ Metak,

"if you trust strangers better than yourself.. fine with me... it's your choice."

I hope I wouldn't be in a position to leave my future children with a childminder/nanny. I really hope I would be in a position to look after them myself until they are ready for school...

I shall just have to trust that school is safe enough...although I take on board your and Amy's views on this.

And, I could supplement their education with my own teaching too.

How are you going to get your kids educated if you don't send them to school? Would you expect your future wife to be a homeschooler? If this is the case, do you know where to look for such a woman?

Just curious...


@ JV,

"I have a sneaky suspicion that introverts enjoy home schooling more than extraverts. Though I still think that out side activities and socializing would have to be a priority. Perhaps even more so with introverts."

I think I get why this might be the case...

"Parenting is treated like a stressful chore. I think that this is in part because everyone is so hyper about not being judged as a bad parent."

JV, perhaps parenting is stressful because mothers are divided between childcaring and career. So it really IS stressful, no question about it...

A friend of mine whilst still pregnant was phoning around trying to secure a creche place (to start when baby was 2 months old!) because she knew she didn't want to take any more time off from her career than maternity leave would allow. And she doesn't even need to work (husband very well off) but she WANTS to. Pure madness, in my humble opinion, but perhaps I am being naïve...

metak said...

@ST

"How are you going to get your kids educated if you don't send them to school? Would you expect your future wife to be a homeschooler? If this is the case, do you know where to look for such a woman?"

If I decided to have a child with a woman than that would mean that I trust her more than anyone else.. homeschooling would be much better than anything else... at least in the first years...
What you get from public schools is not education it's indoctrination...
Based on what kids are going through in public schools, I can only say NO! ;-)

Teaching techniques used in those schools are ancient, inefficient and damaging to kids... for Gods sake even I know that there are more efficient and funnier ways to learn!! ;-) nothing changes for better... there's a little or nothing at all positive I could attribute to them.

p.s. I've asked my Deity for a wife like that and he's working on it... ;-)

just visiting said...

Career and child rearing can be stressful. I forget sometimes because I work from home, and I'm fortunate to be able to bend my schedules to fit . Not having to commute helps too.

just visiting said...

The other thing too ST, is that your friend is still pregnant. She may change her mind after having the baby. I was convinced that I'd be putting my kids into daycare, and continue being career orientated in the outside world. Until I actually had a baby and my maternal instincts hit me hard. It's different for different women. Sometimes you just don't know until it happens. Lol.

amy said...

@spacetraveler, "But I can't help wondering if unstructured learning is indeed feasible for the masses..."

I'm glad that you liked the article. You don't have to have it all sorted out anytime this week and like JV said, many decisions are grounded in an individual child. I am not for abolishing all education- I think that it is critical that children be taught to read, write, do math, and have some sense of history and culture... I am just skeptical that conventional schools accomplish these goals. Universities shouldn't have to teach remedial classes. And I doubt that a Ritalin prescription is feasible for the masses...

@metek, "I'm sorry to disappoint you but you're simply scared... scared of something that you don't know/understand..."

You are too funny! That is exactly what I said! My words were "I am terrified..." but don't worry for me. Yes, boys are largely unknown to me, but my fear is not crippling- it is familiar like a luxury and joke that I'll outgrow someday- either when I have boys of my own or when my girls start chasing them. I've been scared of all kinds of nice things, like marriage, babies, and cooking a 7 course meal and am sure that having boys would be nice too. I've had a small handful of male family and friends all of whom have proved very human and personable. I have no rational reason to think that a son would be any different.

I think you would like a bon mot I've held onto for the last few years watching my girls run wild, "better a broken bone than a broken spirit."


@just visiting, "It's about finding the right measure of boundaries and freedom to explore."

I think you have summarized the work of parenting in a sentence.

metak said...

@amy

"You are too funny! That is exactly what I said! My words were "I am terrified...""

Sorry about that... ;-) I should really stop writing comments and reading something else at the same time... ;-)

It's nice to see that you've made it that far in your life in spite of all that fear you're keeping with you... ;-) Maybe you should start selling fear? ;-) Why are you so afraid of everything? Let it go! ;-)

I'm done preaching! ;-)


"I think you would like a bon mot I've held onto for the last few years watching my girls run wild, "better a broken bone than a broken spirit.""

Broken bone heals... and the part that is broken becomes even stronger afterwards... ;-)

Spacetraveller said...

@ Amy,

"I've had a small handful of male family and friends all of whom have proved very human and personable."

You got lucky there...
Hahahaha!

"better a broken bone than a broken spirit."

This is a good mantra to have when raising children!
Although...broken boes are incredibly painful :-(

"And I doubt that a Ritalin prescription is feasible for the masses..."

Are you referring to something I am beginning to hear about more and more? That Ritalin is being handed out like smarties by paediatricians, especially to boys?
How awful!
Gatto describes education as the 'drugging up' of the masses. I bet even he wouldn't believe that kids now are being drugged up to their eyeballs, quite literally!

Which brings me to another sticking point. I agreed with Metak in the INTJ thread that I am sceptible about psychology. I happen to harbour similar feelings about psychiatry, especially the kind that is practised today. Where drugs are seen as the panacea for all mental ails...some of which are often grossly overdiagnosed in the first place...

@ Metak,

"p.s. I've asked my Deity for a wife like that and he's working on it... ;-)"

Yes, I agree He is probably the best one to ask for these sorts of things ;)
May He deliver to your door exactly what you want!

@ JV,

Sorry, I gave you an incomplete picture of my friend's situation. This was her second baby, and she had her in March. She discovered after the birth of her first child that there is a long waiting list for creche places, so her child didn't get a place until he was about 3 months old, and she found this frustrating. Luckiliy all 4 grandparents were there to help. So with her second pregnancy, she was quick off the mark to secure a place even before the child was born!
I find the whole thing rather...odd...and I can almost sympathise with Metak's view: why have children only to have someone else raise them?
But like I said I am aware that this might be seen as incredibly naïve...

metak said...

@ST

"Yes, I agree He is probably the best one to ask for these sorts of things ;)
May He deliver to your door exactly what you want!"


I asked him but I could hear him all the way down, laughing at me... ;-) He probably thought I was joking... ;-)

Why does all this talk about raising a boy reminds me of "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them!"?

When you ST & amy give birth and the doctor sees the child and says: I'm sorry to inform you mam, but you've got yourself an Alien! Just look at him, his already pissing on me punk! ;-) Don't worry mam we've got large selection of drugs and vaccines that will fix his behavioral problems... sure it will destroy him in process but you'll have a boy that won't make any troubles for you... or government... ;-)
in fact he'll be perfect for flying drones and killings civilians because he'll be brainwashed zombie... ;-)

Well drug him doctor, what are you waiting for! I want only what's best for my son... ;-)

Women and their paranoia... ;-)

p.s. ST I couldn't help myself I had to write this... ;-)

Spacetraveller said...

@ Metak,

"p.s. ST I couldn't help myself I had to write this... ;-)"

Actually, Metak, you might have painted a more accurate picture of what life is like for a lot of boys than you realise.
I do hope I am wrong about this though...

metak said...

@ST

"Actually, Metak, you might have painted a more accurate picture of what life is like for a lot of boys than you realise.
I do hope I am wrong about this though..."


After reading it (again) I felt sick...
All those ;-) turned to ;-(...

Spacetraveller said...

@ Metak,

Yes.
:-( indeed

:-(

Spacetraveller said...

@ Metak,

Yes.
:-( indeed

:-(

Anonymous said...

"Here are some goodies from the national treasure chest of HRH Prince P's gaffes, for your entertainment. "

Gotta like a guy that calls it like he sees it with no varnish or non-sense. In my life I'd had the pleasure of meeting some of his type - who gives it to you like it is. I have always appreciated honesty and candor - regardless of how others find it.

As someone that gets paid to clean up messes brought about by the type that can't "tell it like it is" if their life depended on it. I can say if more people were like that, the world wouldn't be nearly as f**ked up as it is.

I was once brought into a contract - gave my scathing evaluation to audible gasps. Basically said, "I expect you to keep screwing it up since you don't have the b*lls to do what needs to be done to make it work. If you decide you want it to work, call me - the price will be higher to fix it by then, but it's your choice." Then left. The after-shocks were quite heavy but I get called when the sh*t has not only hit the fan but already hit a lot of others who do not like to be hit with sh*t - so eventually I got a call - from those in charge. They told me I had carte blanche. First thing I did was get rid of all of the people that gasped at the audacity of someone telling the truth of the mess they made - since I needed to know where the problems were if I was going to fix them, rather than having someone try to hide them. Then got people that were willing to tell me where the problem were that I couldn't see, in place of the idiots that were too busy spouting BS rather than doing their job.

In my life I've found that men are usually the ones who tell it like it is. Most women either try to be nice, or have an ax to bury - neither is a good trait from my perspective. So someone like Prince P is worth his weight in gold - he gives a perfect reflection of how you are seen by others. That is priceless...

Spacetraveller said...

@ Anonymous,

"In my life I've found that men are usually the ones who tell it like it is. Most women either try to be nice, or have an ax to bury - neither is a good trait from my perspective. So someone like Prince P is worth his weight in gold - he gives a perfect reflection of how you are seen by others. That is priceless..."

I SO agree with you!

About women doing this, I suspect they could do it too, but somehow society just won't let them get away with it, because it is defined as a 'masculine' thing, quite apart from the fact that...it IS a masculine thing.

Great story.
Oh to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting ;)